Hi all,
I am wondering what the best manual gearbox would be for a high powered 202?
I have a 186 on the way with 12 port head running on avgas only. The head is flowed to 290hp etc etc so i am expecting good power from the mill.
What would be best out of an Aussie 4 speed, supra 5 speed or a celica 5 speed?
I am not interested in an auto at this stage.
Thanks in advance
Barbermi
Best gearbox for a strong 186?
Started by
_barbermi_
, Oct 07 2009 08:14 AM
25 replies to this topic
#2
_NZ Toranaman_
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Posted 07 October 2009 - 10:01 AM
My opinion is based off racing buds and personal experience. V8's can destroy gearboxes with huge torque but 6's generally are ok.
I know I go against what many say but the Aussie 4-speed is a good box and the ratios of the close ratio are very good.
The Supra is ok and gets you the overdrive gear and is very strong behind a 6 but the ratios are not as good as the Aussie.
I have been using an $80 M20 and drag racing it for years (around 800 runs) with no problems apart from linkages and clutch issue which I have modified the original bits, at present I run mid 13's with best 13.19 but at next meeting I am hopeful of getting a 12.
I believe its how you drive not what you drive, and although I know I will break my M20 eventually at least I know i have got my 10cents per run out of it
I know I go against what many say but the Aussie 4-speed is a good box and the ratios of the close ratio are very good.
The Supra is ok and gets you the overdrive gear and is very strong behind a 6 but the ratios are not as good as the Aussie.
I have been using an $80 M20 and drag racing it for years (around 800 runs) with no problems apart from linkages and clutch issue which I have modified the original bits, at present I run mid 13's with best 13.19 but at next meeting I am hopeful of getting a 12.
I believe its how you drive not what you drive, and although I know I will break my M20 eventually at least I know i have got my 10cents per run out of it
#3
Heath
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Posted 07 October 2009 - 10:22 AM
I would go a T5, with a modified CRS: Holden 6=>Celica 5spd bellhousing
There are a company that rebuild & enhance Aussie 4 speeds (don't know the exact work they do but I get the idea they achieve reasonable improvements), but I don't know about how strong they actually make them. Sounds like you will have a fair bit of power...
Supra gearboxes are pretty tough too... A celica gearbox is nice and refined and good to use but I don't know how muc abuse it will cop. People put 308s infront of them and rip them to shreds lol
If you can afford something good, get it, I don't think you will regret spending extra for a box that will never have problems
There are a company that rebuild & enhance Aussie 4 speeds (don't know the exact work they do but I get the idea they achieve reasonable improvements), but I don't know about how strong they actually make them. Sounds like you will have a fair bit of power...
Supra gearboxes are pretty tough too... A celica gearbox is nice and refined and good to use but I don't know how muc abuse it will cop. People put 308s infront of them and rip them to shreds lol
If you can afford something good, get it, I don't think you will regret spending extra for a box that will never have problems
#4
_CraigA_
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Posted 07 October 2009 - 10:36 AM
If you want to spend the cash then one of the stronger Japanese ones (like the Supra Turbo) will be a better option but like Graham I have used an M20 box behind a strong 6 and haven't had any issues - except clutch problems which were solved with a move to a button clutch.
My new engine is being built right now and the engine builder did have a chuckle when we discussed the use of an M20. He told me to buy a few spares
My new engine is being built right now and the engine builder did have a chuckle when we discussed the use of an M20. He told me to buy a few spares
Edited by CraigA, 07 October 2009 - 10:38 AM.
#5
greens nice
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Posted 07 October 2009 - 04:21 PM
Get it over and done with and get a supra 
sure the ratios arent quite as good as the m20, but goodluck breaking a supra anytime soon, as long as u use the right oil she'll be sweet.
at least if u know that you can sidestep the clutch at 6500 and know that you wont have metal splattered all over the bitumen
cheers
sure the ratios arent quite as good as the m20, but goodluck breaking a supra anytime soon, as long as u use the right oil she'll be sweet.
at least if u know that you can sidestep the clutch at 6500 and know that you wont have metal splattered all over the bitumen
cheers
#6
_mello92_
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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:53 PM
Isnt the Supra Turbo box the R154 that is uber rare and expensive? Could be very wrong but...
Alloy case Supra box is my pick - W58 for me anyday, if you can get one, maybe a W57. Though there are some changes in ratios between the W series boxes.
Table at the bottom of this link is helpful - http://users.tpg.com.../gearboxes.html
Just saw the V160 box is 6 speed. hehe. Bet its expensive but.
Alloy case Supra box is my pick - W58 for me anyday, if you can get one, maybe a W57. Though there are some changes in ratios between the W series boxes.
Table at the bottom of this link is helpful - http://users.tpg.com.../gearboxes.html
Just saw the V160 box is 6 speed. hehe.
Bet its expensive but.
#7
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:57 PM
Anything will live, and at the same time anything will fail, just depends on how often you side step the clutch at stupid rpm.
Cheers.
Cheers.
#8
wot179
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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:13 PM
A Gm product.
Saggy,Muncie,Aussie4,T5,T10,superT10.
Dont go over to the darkside and consider fraud stuff.
And jap boxes in a Holden is just wrong.(better than an auto,but)
Saggy,Muncie,Aussie4,T5,T10,superT10.
Dont go over to the darkside and consider fraud stuff.
And jap boxes in a Holden is just wrong.(better than an auto,but)
#9
Posted 09 October 2009 - 06:28 AM
I'd much rather have an Aussie 4 speed over the Supra behind my V8 if it could handle the torque. Behind a six, go for a well-built Aussie box
#10
warrenm
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Posted 09 October 2009 - 07:23 AM
I'm with wot179. 6 cylinder Sag would be my choice, which has similar ratios as an M-20.
#11
gtrboyy
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Posted 09 October 2009 - 10:45 AM
A properly rebuilt m20 should take the grunt if you use it sensibly enough.
I had a mate rebuild mine that lasted years behind a triple webbered 202 that ran 13's.
I had a mate rebuild mine that lasted years behind a triple webbered 202 that ran 13's.
#13
TerrA LX
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Posted 09 October 2009 - 03:49 PM
Who drives sensibly though?
When you own a car with an M20 your wallet teaches you to drive sensibly
#14
_barbermi_
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Posted 09 October 2009 - 08:27 PM
HAHA some useful tips here guys,
To throw a spanner in the works how would a trimatic hold up?
Terrible one has one for sale that i am looking at getting.
Sorry for all the dumbass questions but i am new to all the holden stuff.
Cheers again.
To throw a spanner in the works how would a trimatic hold up?
Terrible one has one for sale that i am looking at getting.
Sorry for all the dumbass questions but i am new to all the holden stuff.
Cheers again.
#15
_NZ Toranaman_
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Posted 10 October 2009 - 05:40 AM
HAHA some useful tips here guys,
To throw a spanner in the works how would a trimatic hold up?
Terrible one has one for sale that i am looking at getting.
Sorry for all the dumbass questions but i am new to all the holden stuff.
Cheers again.
It won't as they are too soft in stock form.
#16
gtrboyy
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Posted 10 October 2009 - 05:50 AM
A well built trimatic can be built to take atleast 450hp-500hp,although there are people pushing more than that with v8s without a problem.
Just got to make sure you get the right stall convertor to suit your engine.
I would still prefer a manual behind a well worked six,if it's naturally aspirated manual,turbo six then I'd go an auto.
Just got to make sure you get the right stall convertor to suit your engine.
I would still prefer a manual behind a well worked six,if it's naturally aspirated manual,turbo six then I'd go an auto.
#17
_NZ Toranaman_
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Posted 10 October 2009 - 06:02 AM
A well built trimatic can be built to take atleast 450hp-500hp,although there are people pushing more than that with v8s without a problem.
Just got to make sure you get the right stall convertor to suit your engine.
I would still prefer a manual behind a well worked six,if it's naturally aspirated manual,turbo six then I'd go an auto.
Totally agree... Auto issues that need fixing: the servo piston is soft, clutch problems need to be adressed, input shaft, shift kit(manual kit is best) and it still can't handle doing excessive burnouts in low gears from what the experts who build them say. Manual 6 FTW
#18
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 10 October 2009 - 05:39 PM
Why do a burnout in a low gear???
Be a man, pull them in top
Cheers.
Be a man, pull them in top
Cheers.
#19
Ice
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Posted 11 October 2009 - 08:24 PM
Best gearbox for a six imho well here is my record
all aussie snot box blown 3
muncie 0
tells the story.
all aussie snot box blown 3
muncie 0
tells the story.
#20
_nemo355v8_
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Posted 12 October 2009 - 09:59 PM
I ran a M-21 behind my 330 stroker was fine, did 3rd gear burn outs plenty of runs not a problem till I started
running under 13 second then they tear the case hardening off ever thing.
I never side stepped the clutch thou only in the water on the burn out pad.
If you going to abuse one dont even bother bolting it in.
running under 13 second then they tear the case hardening off ever thing.
I never side stepped the clutch thou only in the water on the burn out pad.
If you going to abuse one dont even bother bolting it in.
#21
_NZ Toranaman_
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Posted 13 October 2009 - 04:49 AM
I ran a M-21 behind my 330 stroker was fine, did 3rd gear burn outs plenty of runs not a problem till I started
running under 13 second then they tear the case hardening off ever thing.
I never side stepped the clutch thou only in the water on the burn out pad.
If you going to abuse one dont even bother bolting it in.
330 or 230? and I have never sidestepped my clutch either. I run slightly modded stock clutch, pressure plate, flywheel and M20 wide ratio and have been running 13's for the past year and a half and low-mid 14's for about 4 years before that. I do around 150 runs per year in it and first 1/4 miled it in 2003 and have only missed 1 meeting since here.
This coming meet on the 25th I should have my new stronger diff with the 3.9 gears in it plus the grippiest tyres I have ever had and this may well put the final strains on the old gears... I will let you all know how it goes and if i can crack a 12 finally.
#22
_gmlj6_
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Posted 30 December 2009 - 06:10 PM
i cant see why everone doesnt like autos. there my jam
#23
rodomo
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Posted 30 December 2009 - 09:20 PM
This:
"With planetary gears and a conventional friction clutch, these transmissions allowed easier shifting and required less driving skill."
From here:
http://diablotransmissions.com/history_automatic_transmission.html
Real men drive manuals
"With planetary gears and a conventional friction clutch, these transmissions allowed easier shifting and required less driving skill."
From here:
http://diablotransmissions.com/history_automatic_transmission.html
Real men drive manuals
#25
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 31 December 2009 - 06:33 AM
Choosing the right box for a hot six can be a real problem (as I've found out myself). Once you get beyond a certain level of tune 4 speeds aren't enough to stay in the "sweet spot" of the powerband. The cam choice ends up being a compromise. And if you run a tri or a 'glide with a tiny convertor then you end up wasting a fair few hp. Not a problem with a 600hp V8 but with the little six you can't afford to chuck too many away. If it's mainly for strip use a W57 with very low diff gears (~5:1) and using all 5 gears looks good. Dunno how long 5th would last but it's not a lot of torque with the six so probably ok. I've copy/pasted some ratios of some common boxes from a file below:
Trimatic
1st 2.31
2nd 1.46
3rd 1
TH700
First - 3.059
Second - 1.625
Third - 1.000
Fourth - 0.696
200-4R:
2.74 first
1.57 second
1.00 third
.67 fourth
BTR 4 Speed
1st: 2.39:1
2nd: 1.45:1
3rd: 1.00:1
4th: 0.68:1
Ford AOD
First: 2.40:1
Second: 1.47:1
Third: 1.00:1
Overdrive: 0.67:1
M20
3.05
2.19
1.51
1.00
M21 had 2.54 1st gear
M22 had 3.74
W58 Toyota
First Gear: 3.285:1
Second Gear: 1.894:1
Third Gear: 1.275:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.783:1
W57
First Gear: 3.285:1
Second Gear: 1.894:1
Third Gear: 1.275:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.861:1
W55
First Gear: 3.566:1
Second Gear: 2.056:1
Third Gear: 1.384:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.85:1
R154
First Gear: 3.250:1
Second Gear: 1.955:1
Third Gear: 1.310:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.753:1
6L80E
1st Gear Ratio
4.027
2nd Gear Ratio
2.364
3rd Gear Ratio
1.532
4th Gear Ratio
1.152
5th Gear Ratio
0.852
6th Gear Ratio
0.667
Reverse
3.064
Trimatic
1st 2.31
2nd 1.46
3rd 1
TH700
First - 3.059
Second - 1.625
Third - 1.000
Fourth - 0.696
200-4R:
2.74 first
1.57 second
1.00 third
.67 fourth
BTR 4 Speed
1st: 2.39:1
2nd: 1.45:1
3rd: 1.00:1
4th: 0.68:1
Ford AOD
First: 2.40:1
Second: 1.47:1
Third: 1.00:1
Overdrive: 0.67:1
M20
3.05
2.19
1.51
1.00
M21 had 2.54 1st gear
M22 had 3.74
W58 Toyota
First Gear: 3.285:1
Second Gear: 1.894:1
Third Gear: 1.275:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.783:1
W57
First Gear: 3.285:1
Second Gear: 1.894:1
Third Gear: 1.275:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.861:1
W55
First Gear: 3.566:1
Second Gear: 2.056:1
Third Gear: 1.384:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.85:1
R154
First Gear: 3.250:1
Second Gear: 1.955:1
Third Gear: 1.310:1
Fourth Gear: 1.00:1
Fifth Gear: 0.753:1
6L80E
1st Gear Ratio
4.027
2nd Gear Ratio
2.364
3rd Gear Ratio
1.532
4th Gear Ratio
1.152
5th Gear Ratio
0.852
6th Gear Ratio
0.667
Reverse
3.064
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