Hey all,
As per the subject line I want to get some opinions on rebuilding a 253 V8.
Before everyone starts with the boat anchor comments, I know I can get more power out of a 308, but I would rather keep the 253 if possible as it is a matching number block for my SS.
Why I am here:
Long story short, the car overheated and then there was evidence of coolant mixing in the oil. After the overheating the compression was still good and the car could start, idle etc. In my spare time I changed all the gaskets (hoping this would fix it) and when I finally put it together this weekend, the motor now leaks coolant from one of the heads. My thoughts are a warped head.
Although the block is possibly still fine and I could get away with just machining the heads, I would like to take the opportunity to rebuild the motor.. again.
What I have planned (May not actually work)
Cleaning up the cylinders:
My motor is already 60 thou over from the previous owner's rebuild and I do not wish to go anymore than that. I would rather bore and sleeve the motor and possibly get it back to 20 thou or even standard (if pistons are available).
Besides this I don't really know what else I need done. Is there any other machining that needs to be done?
Increasing flow:
I know that there is some work that needs to be done around the heads as they are likely warped from the overheating. I don't know whether I should grab the heads from a spare blue block 253 that I have(condition unknown) or just use the red heads that are on it now. Is there anything I should look for when getting this done? Do I need new rockers or valves or is this stating the obvious?
I know I would like to get a lumpier cam than what I currently have. I believe it might have been a stage 2 cam of some sort and I could easily handle something alot more lumpier. Im guessing this goes hand in hand with the head work that gets done.
Stroke
I remember seeing a while back some stroker kits available for the 253 motor that could get the displacement out to around the 310ci mark. If this stroker is still available and with the above could get me around the 350bhp mark, then I think I would definetely be heading down this path. Any opinions on this? Are there any other stroker kits available?
So I don't get ripped off
Lastly correct me if I am wrong but I would guess I would have to pay the following for the work being performed (labour only):
1. Sleeving and machine of block ~1000
2. Build stroker motor ~1500
3. Heads flowed etc ~1500
Any help and suggestions (or critisms) then please let me know. I don't really know what I need done.
Cheers,
Dan
Rebuild 253
Started by
_lxss_
, Nov 09 2009 06:14 PM
18 replies to this topic
#2
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 05:49 AM
I can understand why you'd want to keep the original engine in that matching numbers make a collectable car more desireable. But I would think that keeping the original engine in close to its original, unmolested form would be the best option.
How about just putting the original 253 under the bench for the time being? You could give it a freshen up and reinstall it if you later decide to sell the car, and in the meantime run a mild 308. Building a stroker 253 is an awfully expensive way to make 350hp; on the other hand it'd be trivially easy to do this with a 308. The other advantage is that you could thrash the bejesus out of it and if you happen to blow it up well it's no big deal - just throw another 308 in. But if you were to lunch the 253 big time you no longer have your matching engine or all the money it took to make a very moderate amount of power.
How about just putting the original 253 under the bench for the time being? You could give it a freshen up and reinstall it if you later decide to sell the car, and in the meantime run a mild 308. Building a stroker 253 is an awfully expensive way to make 350hp; on the other hand it'd be trivially easy to do this with a 308. The other advantage is that you could thrash the bejesus out of it and if you happen to blow it up well it's no big deal - just throw another 308 in. But if you were to lunch the 253 big time you no longer have your matching engine or all the money it took to make a very moderate amount of power.
#3
GML-31
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 08:37 AM
^^^ I am with above... shelve the 253 for when you want to sell it, and throw a nice 308 in.
#4
_sbc57lx_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:32 AM
Stick with your 253 , There isn't enough 308 left to go around .......
NA , AS ABOVE,
NA , AS ABOVE,
#5
_lxss_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 11:46 AM
Thanks for the replies.
I am tempted to go down the 308 path and the 383 stroker is just so tempting. Saying that though before I turn to that endless money pit which then needs gearbox and diff changes, what are your opinions on my proposed work to the 253? Is what I am suggesting going to work? I don't have much knowledge in engine building. I want a mild streeter, and very well what I want might not require the stroker at all to achieve. If it is not achievable I might even just get the heads machined and back to how it was before it overheated. I just thought I would take the opportunity to freshen up the motor while it was apart again.
I see your point of view about the originality of the motor and how I might as well change it, but I like the idea of worked internals as visually it will appear the same (including engine #) and then what is inside, only I will know
(and maybe the pig idle 
)
Cheers,
Dan
I am tempted to go down the 308 path and the 383 stroker is just so tempting. Saying that though before I turn to that endless money pit which then needs gearbox and diff changes, what are your opinions on my proposed work to the 253? Is what I am suggesting going to work? I don't have much knowledge in engine building. I want a mild streeter, and very well what I want might not require the stroker at all to achieve. If it is not achievable I might even just get the heads machined and back to how it was before it overheated. I just thought I would take the opportunity to freshen up the motor while it was apart again.
I see your point of view about the originality of the motor and how I might as well change it, but I like the idea of worked internals as visually it will appear the same (including engine #) and then what is inside, only I will know
(and maybe the pig idle ) Cheers,
Dan
#6
Statler
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 12:00 PM
You want to resleeve a 60thou over 253??????? Me thinks you might have more money than sence!
I'm with ^^^^^^^^^. Throw the 253 under a bench & slot in a 308! Then whatever performance mods you do to the engine will be a bonus....as opposed to trying to catch up to the 308's standard performance figures.
I'm with ^^^^^^^^^. Throw the 253 under a bench & slot in a 308! Then whatever performance mods you do to the engine will be a bonus....as opposed to trying to catch up to the 308's standard performance figures.
#7
_lxss_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:26 PM
You want to resleeve a 60thou over 253??????? Me thinks you might have more money than sence!
Hi Coolngroovy,
Might be obvious, but why is sleeving a 60thou 253 a bad idea?
Cheers,
Dan
#8
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:48 PM
I can understand sleeving a HZ block ect, but the cost of sleeving a 253 is the same as a 308. I would presume stroking an aussie V8 would also be similar in cost.
You want to resleeve a 60thou over 253??????? Me thinks you might have more money than sence!
Hi Coolngroovy,
Might be obvious, but why is sleeving a 60thou 253 a bad idea?
Cheers,
Dan
If you stroke the 253 out to .....say...290 cubes???...but for the same money you can stroke a 308 out to...say..355?? which one is giving you better bang for your buck?
My point is this...if you are going to spend 5K on building a 253 stroker, the end result [for arguments sake] could be around 300HP.
If you spend the same amount on a 308, the end result could be around 400HP. Yet the 308 still has a lot of room for improvement.
I've never heard of anyone wanting less HP for their money.
If you are dead keen on retaining the HR 253 block, then i suggest you buy another std bore 253 block & go nuts. They are a whole lot cheaper than resleeving 8 pots.
Just my humble opinion.
#9
MRLXSS
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 01:58 PM
Hey Mate,
Welcome!
Have a read of my thread here
http://www.gmh-toran...opic=32031&st=0
Give you an idea about 290 strokers and stuff.
I like what your saying with keeping it original. You don't have to spend heaps on getting something like this to go hard. Get yourself some good heads, and have the carby done to suit, and you'll have a smile on your face more often than not! And its the original motor! Double win!
On the 2nd page of that thread, there is some info their that might interest you RE: Bore sizes (Mine is like 120thou over size!)
Welcome!
Have a read of my thread here
http://www.gmh-toran...opic=32031&st=0
Give you an idea about 290 strokers and stuff.
I like what your saying with keeping it original. You don't have to spend heaps on getting something like this to go hard. Get yourself some good heads, and have the carby done to suit, and you'll have a smile on your face more often than not! And its the original motor! Double win!
On the 2nd page of that thread, there is some info their that might interest you RE: Bore sizes (Mine is like 120thou over size!)
#10
_lxss_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:11 PM
Hi Guys,
I understand where the majority of you are coming from with more power from the 308. The point is I want to keep the 253 if it is possible to salvage (I understand it is not the most efficient, powerful, cost effective etc). If the 253 can't be rebuilt, then I would probably go for a 308 and work on that as many have suggested. However, moving to a 308 means I also need to upgrade the rest of the driveline to cope and my intentions were to always keep it as original as possible so this puts conflicting ideas in my head :(.
MRLXSS, thank you for the link. It seems like the motor was a great find and compliments to you for great work on the car altogether (had a look at another thread with the build up). Something like your motor is what I am after but I don't know about 120 thou over (that is just scary from what people have told me).
The only reason I mention sleeving is I have been told this can reduce the boring that was previously done in past rebuilds (don't know how accurate this is) and for about 150 a cylinder I think it is worth it if the results in the end are like a rebuilt 20 thou motor. Along with the sleeving, a head/cam package might be all that is required to satisfy my needs, but depending on recomendations a stroker might go in as well.
Outright power is not what I am after for the SS. That is something I would like to do in the future but likely in a S or SL. For any SS, SLR, GTR etc, I would always try go for original, but this is my choice and many would not agree.
I would still be interested in hearing from anyone who has rebuilt, or knows there way around motors, to comment on whether the above rebuild is possible for the 253. I want to know have an idea of what I am talking about when I go speak to an engine builder.
Thanks again all for your responses.
Cheers,
Dan
I understand where the majority of you are coming from with more power from the 308. The point is I want to keep the 253 if it is possible to salvage (I understand it is not the most efficient, powerful, cost effective etc). If the 253 can't be rebuilt, then I would probably go for a 308 and work on that as many have suggested. However, moving to a 308 means I also need to upgrade the rest of the driveline to cope and my intentions were to always keep it as original as possible so this puts conflicting ideas in my head :(.
MRLXSS, thank you for the link. It seems like the motor was a great find and compliments to you for great work on the car altogether (had a look at another thread with the build up). Something like your motor is what I am after but I don't know about 120 thou over (that is just scary from what people have told me).
The only reason I mention sleeving is I have been told this can reduce the boring that was previously done in past rebuilds (don't know how accurate this is) and for about 150 a cylinder I think it is worth it if the results in the end are like a rebuilt 20 thou motor. Along with the sleeving, a head/cam package might be all that is required to satisfy my needs, but depending on recomendations a stroker might go in as well.
Outright power is not what I am after for the SS. That is something I would like to do in the future but likely in a S or SL. For any SS, SLR, GTR etc, I would always try go for original, but this is my choice and many would not agree.
I would still be interested in hearing from anyone who has rebuilt, or knows there way around motors, to comment on whether the above rebuild is possible for the 253. I want to know have an idea of what I am talking about when I go speak to an engine builder.
Thanks again all for your responses.
Cheers,
Dan
#11
MRLXSS
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:19 PM
MRLXSS, thank you for the link. It seems like the motor was a great find and compliments to you for great work on the car altogether (had a look at another thread with the build up). Something like your motor is what I am after but I don't know about 120 thou over (that is just scary from what people have told me).
Thanks Dan,
I wouldn't be to stressed about 120thou over, mine has no over heating problems or anything, I dont know if my walls have been sleeved or anything to suit though.
But With a good well built bottom end, a good set of L34 heads, a good elec dizzy graphed to a nice cam, with a 4 Barrel quaddy dyno tuned to suit the motor, you could have the motor around 140rwkw, which is great for a 253, and better than a lot of 308's are.
#12
_TJ253_
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Posted 10 November 2009 - 09:21 PM
Stick with the 253! rebuild it throw in a mild cam and a good carby on top maybe a electronic Dizzy? and exhaust and just enjoy it... going down the stroker path = more HP but alot more $$
#13
yel327
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Posted 11 November 2009 - 05:28 AM
I agree with the 308 path. Put the 253 aside for another day. It's just a 253 SS, so matching numbers isn't really as important as say with an SS A9X! Plus you'll have the original engine there for the future if needed. I'd just buy a 308 and rebuild it nicely as a 308, with some better heads, extractors, HEI dizzy, cam and a balance. Then at least you might have a chance of your driveline as it is now surviving. Stroking to 350 or bigger isn't cheap, and neither are the broken boxes and banjos!
#14
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 11 November 2009 - 05:55 AM
Hi Guys,
I understand where the majority of you are coming from with more power from the 308. The point is I want to keep the 253 if it is possible to salvage (I understand it is not the most efficient, powerful, cost effective etc)
Sounds like you've got your heart set on doing the 253 up right or wrong. I was going to say something about the futility of wasting money on substandard engines but then I remembered that I spend most of my spare time and money on 202s - pot, kettle, black etc. etc...
If you really really must use the 253, just take it to your builder and get him to sonic check the bore wall thickness. It doesn't cost much and you'll soon find out whether sleeving is required (probably not). Tell him that it's been hot and he will crack test it and carry out all the usual checks - deck flatness, main tunnel alignment etc. etc. Horsepower per dollar wise you're always gonna be way behind a 308 but ultimately it's your money and your choice.
#15
_mello92_
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Posted 11 November 2009 - 06:55 AM
Dan,
That 310 stroker kit is still available: http://pro-stroke.co...&products_id=45
But I think that for a decent streeter, stroking is unnecessary.
Id suggest you do something like MRLXSS recommended. Just remember to get a bigger cam than the one you have now
Any more and you will have to start changing the driveline.
Defys the whole point of keeping the original engine then.
Good on ya for doing something different mate!
Cheers.
That 310 stroker kit is still available: http://pro-stroke.co...&products_id=45
But I think that for a decent streeter, stroking is unnecessary.
Id suggest you do something like MRLXSS recommended. Just remember to get a bigger cam than the one you have now
Any more and you will have to start changing the driveline.
Defys the whole point of keeping the original engine then.
Good on ya for doing something different mate!
Cheers.
#16
View GaragePosted 11 November 2009 - 07:39 AM
I thought the accepted figure for a safe limit was something like 140thou (whereas the same for a 308 would be 60thou). 253 blocks have a lot thicker wallsI wouldn't be to stressed about 120thou over
Just rebuild the 253 how you want it, don't worry about sleeving
#17
_sbc57lx_
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Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:00 AM
Defys the whole point of keeping the original engine then.
NOW that's a very good point , if you what to keep it all original just get your engine rebuilt ( may be a SMALL cam , little port work ).
That way all the original drive line can be kept. Any more HP , forget about keeping your current drive line.
Just keep it all simple , save some dollars , AND saves a hole lot of hassles - enjoy it for what it is. - a very original SS
NOW that's a very good point , if you what to keep it all original just get your engine rebuilt ( may be a SMALL cam , little port work ).
That way all the original drive line can be kept. Any more HP , forget about keeping your current drive line.
Just keep it all simple , save some dollars , AND saves a hole lot of hassles - enjoy it for what it is. - a very original SS
#18
_lxss_
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Posted 11 November 2009 - 09:10 PM
if you what to keep it all original just get your engine rebuilt ( may be a SMALL cam , little port work ).
That way all the original drive line can be kept. Any more HP , forget about keeping your current drive line.
Just keep it all simple , save some dollars , AND saves a hole lot of hassles - enjoy it for what it is. - a very original SS
Thanks for all your responses. I spoke with my mechanic this afternoon who also happens to build a lot of the old Ford and Holden V8s and we are basically going to do a small rebuild to get it up running (pistons rings machining) and along with a cam, heads, manifold upgrade to get a bit more power but nothing silly. Of course this all depends on whether the block is salvageable but he thinks worse case the heads might need replacing so it is looking good.
Should continue being the same stocker it once was.
Cheers,
Dan
#19
_bon_scott_
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Posted 13 November 2009 - 12:19 PM
A guy on the street commodores forum has a vc wagon with a 253 that I think was something like 171-180thou over, running mechanical methanol injection I think. Was a mental 253.
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