hi all just wondering if any one has put a v6 m90 blower on their 202 and wat are the results im asking because my dad bought one from the states cheap $100 low km blower, those toyota sc14 blowers are crap imo
supercharged 202 with m90 blower
Started by
xu1kid
, Apr 02 2010 02:57 PM
11 replies to this topic
#1
xu1kid
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 02:57 PM
#2
Heath
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 03:44 PM
SC14s are not crap, they are limiting.
I've seen M90s used on Holden 6's but I don't have any E.T.s or engine dyno graphs
I've seen M90s used on Holden 6's but I don't have any E.T.s or engine dyno graphs
#3
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 03:49 PM
Heath is correct, SC-14's are great blowers...That were designed to go on a 2 litre engine.
When dickheads (CRS) try to put them on 3.3 or 3.8 litre engines they seem crap, but realistically there just put way out of there relm of goodlyness.
You wouldent put a Gemini motor in a f100 would you?
M90 should work ok, specially if you go blow through and intercool it....
Still prolly wont be as good as a correctly sized turbo, but better than a SC-14.
That said intended application has a lot to do with it aswell.
Cheers.
When dickheads (CRS) try to put them on 3.3 or 3.8 litre engines they seem crap, but realistically there just put way out of there relm of goodlyness.
You wouldent put a Gemini motor in a f100 would you?
M90 should work ok, specially if you go blow through and intercool it....
Still prolly wont be as good as a correctly sized turbo, but better than a SC-14.
That said intended application has a lot to do with it aswell.
Cheers.
#4
_mello92_
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:12 PM
FCCOOL has one in his beast I think.
From memory he draws through a SU carb??
Could be way off, there are that many projects on here.
From memory he draws through a SU carb??
Could be way off, there are that many projects on here.
#5
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:33 PM
yea they mite be good for small motor grumpy grey, i want to use it for my 186 stroker realy if i ditch the 6 throttle body setup, id still go fuel injection drill the injectors into the manifold near the head, can you run a intercooler in front of the grill or do i have to run the intercooler that sits under the blower
#6
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:38 PM
FCCOOL has one on a 202 from memory, and IMO it would do a lot better if it wasnt drawing though a 2" SU....
Intercooler depends, if you want it to look "traditional" run the blower ontop of the manifold with a water to air intercooler between the blower and the mani, have injectors in the mani as you said and stick the TB ontop of the blower. Looks traditional and is very efficient, plus you can stick a nice air cleaner out the bonnet.
If your not so worried run the blower beside the engine with pipework going to an air to air (not so efficient) and back to the intake then efi etc...
Personally i would take the first option either way as you get to run a water to air and not look gay.
I still hate 235 strokers though, for so many reasons. But thats a different subject for a different thread.
Cheers.
Intercooler depends, if you want it to look "traditional" run the blower ontop of the manifold with a water to air intercooler between the blower and the mani, have injectors in the mani as you said and stick the TB ontop of the blower. Looks traditional and is very efficient, plus you can stick a nice air cleaner out the bonnet.
If your not so worried run the blower beside the engine with pipework going to an air to air (not so efficient) and back to the intake then efi etc...
Personally i would take the first option either way as you get to run a water to air and not look gay.
I still hate 235 strokers though, for so many reasons. But thats a different subject for a different thread.
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 02 April 2010 - 06:39 PM.
#7
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 06:52 PM
just out of curiosity why do you hate them so much? no offence taken or anything just curious coz i havnt built mine yet so i can change plan anytime and use the 202 block i have all parts are interchangeble , is it because they dont rev out to 7000 rpm like 202s
#8
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:00 PM
I have seen an M90 on an EH straight 6 before.
#9
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 02 April 2010 - 07:11 PM
Mate, a stock bottom endded 202 wont rev out to 7000 reliably regardless of what crank it has.
To put it simply is the theory of rod ratio's, harmonics and balancing.
The biggest difference between running a 202 crank and a 235 crank is Rod ratio, all the other problems are still there.
A 186 has a fairly reasonable rod ratio. A 202 has a borderline on to short rod ratio. A 235 has a WAY to short rod ratio.
If your unsure on that have a read of This.
The holden six block has a hard enough time holding together as it is yet alone frOcking up both the harmonics (A ford crank is as bad as a red motor crank) and the RR.
Cheers.
To put it simply is the theory of rod ratio's, harmonics and balancing.
The biggest difference between running a 202 crank and a 235 crank is Rod ratio, all the other problems are still there.
A 186 has a fairly reasonable rod ratio. A 202 has a borderline on to short rod ratio. A 235 has a WAY to short rod ratio.
If your unsure on that have a read of This.
The holden six block has a hard enough time holding together as it is yet alone frOcking up both the harmonics (A ford crank is as bad as a red motor crank) and the RR.
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 02 April 2010 - 07:13 PM.
#10
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Posted 03 April 2010 - 07:58 AM
I've never blown a six so don't take what follows as gospel.. but definitely talk to fccool.
If you're happy to keep boost to a moderate level then it's quite possible to run without an intercooler, and that simplifies things greatly. You'll still have plenty of power with 10 or 12 psi boost and if necessary you can inject some water or water/methanol to cool things down without all the plumbing dramas of intercoolers.
Draw-through is much easier to set up, and if you don't run a cooler there's no reason to go blow-through. The other advantage of draw-through is you don't have to worry about bypass valves or secondary butterflies etc. I know a single SU somehow looks wrong but in practice they work especially well with a blower. A blown street engine is probably harder to get right than a race engine in that not only does it have to make power but it has to be civilised and be able to drive around town without popping and farting at low speeds. I think the SU is ideal because (provided you have the right needle) it will always give the right mixture, even if you lug the engine with full throttle from say 1000rpm in high gear, and won't have lean spots. Remember a lean patch in an NA engine might just cause a flat spot or a minor cough, while in a blown engine it can be a burnt piston or a major intake pop. Whatever carb was used I'd try to arrange things so as to keep it as close to the crank's axis as possible. It's easy to end up with it mounted way out to buggery and that just amplifies the vibration its subjected to. No carb will work properly if it's being shaken to death.
For the engine I wouldn't worry too much about chasing extra cubes; the boost will take care of the power. You could even argue that a 186 would be better choice than a 202. You'd get a gentler rod ratio plus you could probably get a reasonable CR using a 202 head and dished pistons, and wouldn't have to resort to ugly crutches like decomp plates or 202 pistons with a 3" crank. At 15 psi the volume of exhaust gas will be roughly doubled, so you need good flow on this side - 1.5" valves, 1-3/4" primaries and 2-1/2" to 3" collector/tailpipe. A cam with around 112deg lsa and 10-15 more exhaust duration than intake, installed 4-6deg advanced would probably be close to what you'd want.
The only other thing I can think off is ignition - be very conservative with timing. If you let it rattle even briefly with boost you'll kill the engine.
If you're happy to keep boost to a moderate level then it's quite possible to run without an intercooler, and that simplifies things greatly. You'll still have plenty of power with 10 or 12 psi boost and if necessary you can inject some water or water/methanol to cool things down without all the plumbing dramas of intercoolers.
Draw-through is much easier to set up, and if you don't run a cooler there's no reason to go blow-through. The other advantage of draw-through is you don't have to worry about bypass valves or secondary butterflies etc. I know a single SU somehow looks wrong but in practice they work especially well with a blower. A blown street engine is probably harder to get right than a race engine in that not only does it have to make power but it has to be civilised and be able to drive around town without popping and farting at low speeds. I think the SU is ideal because (provided you have the right needle) it will always give the right mixture, even if you lug the engine with full throttle from say 1000rpm in high gear, and won't have lean spots. Remember a lean patch in an NA engine might just cause a flat spot or a minor cough, while in a blown engine it can be a burnt piston or a major intake pop. Whatever carb was used I'd try to arrange things so as to keep it as close to the crank's axis as possible. It's easy to end up with it mounted way out to buggery and that just amplifies the vibration its subjected to. No carb will work properly if it's being shaken to death.
For the engine I wouldn't worry too much about chasing extra cubes; the boost will take care of the power. You could even argue that a 186 would be better choice than a 202. You'd get a gentler rod ratio plus you could probably get a reasonable CR using a 202 head and dished pistons, and wouldn't have to resort to ugly crutches like decomp plates or 202 pistons with a 3" crank. At 15 psi the volume of exhaust gas will be roughly doubled, so you need good flow on this side - 1.5" valves, 1-3/4" primaries and 2-1/2" to 3" collector/tailpipe. A cam with around 112deg lsa and 10-15 more exhaust duration than intake, installed 4-6deg advanced would probably be close to what you'd want.
The only other thing I can think off is ignition - be very conservative with timing. If you let it rattle even briefly with boost you'll kill the engine.
Edited by oldjohnno, 03 April 2010 - 08:11 AM.
#11
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Posted 20 April 2010 - 11:32 PM
As some of the other guys have said i have a M90 on a red (painted grey)
The SU is 2" and works very well but its a bit small and limiting, it took a little mucking around with the carb but i havent touched the carb since getting it working.
There are a few different types of M90's though, mine is a V6 commodore type, it has a bypass valve bult in and in my set up the bypass was quite easy to run, this means when you are not getting into it the blower is bypassed, it also reduces the need for a pop off valve.
The american blowers have a shorter snout, ive seen one used on the spark plug side of the block with V6 coil packs instead of a distributor.
afaik all m90 snouts are interchangable.
if you arent on a tight budget Aussiespeed now do a set up for the ford M90 onto a holden 202 wich requires you buy there snout and manifold, it looks like it would work pretty nice but its more $$$ than my set up.
I still havent had mine on a dyno but i know with the single SU it couldnt go more than 240hp, there is a big difference after fitting the blower, the front of the car now rises under acceleration and it will accelerate quite quickly in top gear going up hill, with a 3.08 diff it will break traction if you accelerate quickly under 40 kph.
since fitting a smaller pulley to the blower ive had a fair bit of detonation wich i hope to fix with a timming retard controller and water injection.
The m90 doesnt seem too get hot, the pipe between the carb and blower ices up in the morning when i run it with the choke on, the blower does get hot if you are in boost alot but its never too hot to touch like you hear about SC14's.
I have cc'd chambers, dished pistons, o ringed block and a copper head gasket, head is a black efi 3.3 but i would stick with a red head if i was doing it again.
I have crane hi6 trc ignition and the cam is set up for a blower and pulls from 3500.
Parts for M90's are easy to get on US ebay and not to expensive since they were so commonly used in US.
Something also to consider is running LPG, i have some friends running LPG on M90's with alot of boost without detonation and its less fussy were you mount the carb.
The SU is 2" and works very well but its a bit small and limiting, it took a little mucking around with the carb but i havent touched the carb since getting it working.
There are a few different types of M90's though, mine is a V6 commodore type, it has a bypass valve bult in and in my set up the bypass was quite easy to run, this means when you are not getting into it the blower is bypassed, it also reduces the need for a pop off valve.
The american blowers have a shorter snout, ive seen one used on the spark plug side of the block with V6 coil packs instead of a distributor.
afaik all m90 snouts are interchangable.
if you arent on a tight budget Aussiespeed now do a set up for the ford M90 onto a holden 202 wich requires you buy there snout and manifold, it looks like it would work pretty nice but its more $$$ than my set up.
I still havent had mine on a dyno but i know with the single SU it couldnt go more than 240hp, there is a big difference after fitting the blower, the front of the car now rises under acceleration and it will accelerate quite quickly in top gear going up hill, with a 3.08 diff it will break traction if you accelerate quickly under 40 kph.
since fitting a smaller pulley to the blower ive had a fair bit of detonation wich i hope to fix with a timming retard controller and water injection.
The m90 doesnt seem too get hot, the pipe between the carb and blower ices up in the morning when i run it with the choke on, the blower does get hot if you are in boost alot but its never too hot to touch like you hear about SC14's.
I have cc'd chambers, dished pistons, o ringed block and a copper head gasket, head is a black efi 3.3 but i would stick with a red head if i was doing it again.
I have crane hi6 trc ignition and the cam is set up for a blower and pulls from 3500.
Parts for M90's are easy to get on US ebay and not to expensive since they were so commonly used in US.
Something also to consider is running LPG, i have some friends running LPG on M90's with alot of boost without detonation and its less fussy were you mount the carb.
#12
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Posted 21 April 2010 - 07:25 AM
I saw the FC in Orange fccool, it's gorgeous...
Why do you say the SU limits you to 240hp, is it because of the flow rating at the standard pressure drop?
I only bring this up because I know there have been some blown/turboed cars that have used the single 2" SU
that have made quite a bit more than that. It seems that with the increased pressure drop across the carb that
a blower can provide they will flow much more, maybe twice as much.
Why do you say the SU limits you to 240hp, is it because of the flow rating at the standard pressure drop?
I only bring this up because I know there have been some blown/turboed cars that have used the single 2" SU
that have made quite a bit more than that. It seems that with the increased pressure drop across the carb that
a blower can provide they will flow much more, maybe twice as much.
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