Finally got my car on the dyno today and iit pulled just on 200 rwhp at 6000. Power was hovering around the 190 - 200 mark from 5500. The heads flowing 298 hp and its running the crow 35647 cam. Still has a bit of fine tuning to go but I was hoping more like 215-220 at the wheels. Can anyone advise if this cam is capable of supporting this kind of hp? we ran out of time so didn't fo a full run to 7000 but peak hp appeared to be stalling. Was running total advance at 35 degrees.
Cheers, Dan
Holden 202 dyno 200 rwhp
Started by
_PeteXU1_
, Jul 09 2011 06:39 PM
21 replies to this topic
#2
rodomo
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Posted 09 July 2011 - 06:45 PM
quote name='PeteXU1' timestamp='1310200750' post='605808']
Can anyone advise if this cam is capable of supporting this kind of hp? [/quote]
From old johnno's "how to build a holden 6". I googled the part number and this came up.
"OK, we'll start by looking at something for a mild street car of around 150ish horsepower - you might want to try a Tighe 640T, or a Wade 104.
For a slightly warmer engine of roughly 180hp check out a Camtech 663, Crow 35626 or Tighe 1029
Up to the low 200s we'd look at a Camtech 629A-106, Tighe 764R or Crow 35647
For hp in the mid 200s and over a Camtech 629B-106 or Tighe 389 would be worth considering."
Can anyone advise if this cam is capable of supporting this kind of hp? [/quote]
From old johnno's "how to build a holden 6". I googled the part number and this came up.
"OK, we'll start by looking at something for a mild street car of around 150ish horsepower - you might want to try a Tighe 640T, or a Wade 104.
For a slightly warmer engine of roughly 180hp check out a Camtech 663, Crow 35626 or Tighe 1029
Up to the low 200s we'd look at a Camtech 629A-106, Tighe 764R or Crow 35647
For hp in the mid 200s and over a Camtech 629B-106 or Tighe 389 would be worth considering."
#3
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 09 July 2011 - 11:42 PM
Thanks for that. I guess I should have looked a little harder!
I figured if I translate 200 rwhp to 250 flywheel horsepower, and considering the head flows just shy of 300, 270 flywheel horsepower would be a reasonable figure to aim for?
Is oldjonno looking at flywheel or rwhp?
Is my calculation correct?What is the approximate drivetrain power loss in an lj Torana?
I figured if I translate 200 rwhp to 250 flywheel horsepower, and considering the head flows just shy of 300, 270 flywheel horsepower would be a reasonable figure to aim for?
Is oldjonno looking at flywheel or rwhp?
Is my calculation correct?What is the approximate drivetrain power loss in an lj Torana?
Edited by PeteXU1, 09 July 2011 - 11:48 PM.
#4
warrenm
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 08:25 AM
Flywheel/ wheel hp loss is approx. 30%. Nothing wrong with that hp from a 6. I'm running as similar cam & have run 12.62@105mph in an LJ.
#5
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:07 AM
I am happy with 200rwhp, feels like a little rocketship, however I know there is more in the engine as peak power only increases about 5hp from 5500-6000. I would have expected to see it climb more in this range, and then more onto 6500.
With the power curve flattening out. I didn't expect to see another jump from 6000-7000 (although we will leave that for another day).
The torque curve is great from 3800 and pretty flat all the way through to 6000
Cam is set at 0 degrees.
I thought the cam should be making more hp power beyond 6000 but was wondering if anyone has experience with this camshaft?
I could probably go to bigger primaries on the headers (still 1.5 tuned pacemakers).
Exhaust is 2.5 collector to 2.5 mandrel straight through.
Also running 1.6 roller rockers. Running the appropriate matching valve springs etc.
11:1 comp
Triple Weber carbs. 38mm Chokes (by my calculations is more than enough to support 225 at the wheels), fuel pressure is fine right through.
Basically looking for any restrictions that could be stalling power gain up high... or is it just the camshaft.
107 lobe centres
254 lift @ .50
Total valve lift with 1.6 roller rockers (less clearance) .532
Head flowed 298hp - It was Eddie's work at HSD
With the power curve flattening out. I didn't expect to see another jump from 6000-7000 (although we will leave that for another day).
The torque curve is great from 3800 and pretty flat all the way through to 6000
Cam is set at 0 degrees.
I thought the cam should be making more hp power beyond 6000 but was wondering if anyone has experience with this camshaft?
I could probably go to bigger primaries on the headers (still 1.5 tuned pacemakers).
Exhaust is 2.5 collector to 2.5 mandrel straight through.
Also running 1.6 roller rockers. Running the appropriate matching valve springs etc.
11:1 comp
Triple Weber carbs. 38mm Chokes (by my calculations is more than enough to support 225 at the wheels), fuel pressure is fine right through.
Basically looking for any restrictions that could be stalling power gain up high... or is it just the camshaft.
107 lobe centres
254 lift @ .50
Total valve lift with 1.6 roller rockers (less clearance) .532
Head flowed 298hp - It was Eddie's work at HSD
#6
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:33 AM
There's more in it, the torque and power peaks are low. I'm assuming it's 9 port? I guess the first thing to do is get it back on the rollers and finish tuning it, then look for some clues. Were you running a full exhaust on the dyno? What headers? When you say it was installed at 0 deg do you mean it was set as per the timing card? This cam is ground with a fair bit of advance built in so it would pay to test with less advance. In other words try to get the installed centrelines closer to being equal. Other things to test that may provide clues would be less intake lash and more exhaust lash (separate tests) and if these are positive try pulling some advance out of the cam and 1.5 exhaust rockers. You'll probably find that once you get it to rev it'll want a bit less spark timing at the top end. There's another 30hp in there.
#7
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 12:20 PM
There's more in it, the torque and power peaks are low. I'm assuming it's 9 port? I guess the first thing to do is get it back on the rollers and finish tuning it, then look for some clues. Were you running a full exhaust on the dyno? What headers? When you say it was installed at 0 deg do you mean it was set as per the timing card? This cam is ground with a fair bit of advance built in so it would pay to test with less advance. In other words try to get the installed centrelines closer to being equal. Other things to test that may provide clues would be less intake lash and more exhaust lash (separate tests) and if these are positive try pulling some advance out of the cam and 1.5 exhaust rockers. You'll probably find that once you get it to rev it'll want a bit less spark timing at the top end. There's another 30hp in there.
Thanks for the feedback OldJohnno,
Yes it's a 9 port (blue bottom end .040 over)
Full exhaust was hooked up (resonator in middle, and 2 1/2 in, twin 2 1/4 out on the muffler)
The headers are Pacemaker tuned length (was going to fit HM 1/58 headers but already had the pacemakers)
The cam was installed at zero degrees on the gears - but to be honest, didn't put a dial on it at the time (a bit of a no-no)
We noticed little power difference from 32 degress total advance to 35 (needed some octance booster though)
AFR was still on the rich side too (11.2) from 5000rpm so I'm sure there is another 5-10 hp just there also...
On the road, it certainly pulls to 7000 without a problem, I was just surprised that hp tapered off at 5500.
Will have a bit of a play around with the clearances as I have them all set at .22 or .24 from memory (have it written down somewhere)
I also have a set of 1.5 rollers so easy enough to have a play...
Roughly where should I be expecting peak hp from this cam?
#8
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 04:47 PM
There's more in it, the torque and power peaks are low. I'm assuming it's 9 port? I guess the first thing to do is get it back on the rollers and finish tuning it, then look for some clues. Were you running a full exhaust on the dyno? What headers? When you say it was installed at 0 deg do you mean it was set as per the timing card? This cam is ground with a fair bit of advance built in so it would pay to test with less advance. In other words try to get the installed centrelines closer to being equal. Other things to test that may provide clues would be less intake lash and more exhaust lash (separate tests) and if these are positive try pulling some advance out of the cam and 1.5 exhaust rockers. You'll probably find that once you get it to rev it'll want a bit less spark timing at the top end. There's another 30hp in there.
Hi again,
The cam has 3 degrees advance ground onto it.
As this is the first time I have looked at cam timing more closely, I am trying to get all the math right... my head is hurting!
The centreline on the inlet I have as 104 (midway between 23 BTDC & 51 ABDC) - I assume this is correct.
I guess this is where the 107 lobe seperation comes into it as both inlet and exh have the same duration + the advance of 3 degrees.
When you say "try to get the centrelines closer to being equal", do you essentially mean retard the cam 3 degrees to compensate for the 3 degrees advance ground into the cam?
#9
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 07:52 PM
Yes that's right. But I wouldn't touch that until I'd done the other simpler things first. I'm assuming the headers are the two piece ones? Could you disconnect the exhaust system just leaving about 16" - 18" of open collectors on? Make a few pulls to get the collector length right and to determine whether the remainder of the system is causing problems. Then try the changes in valve lash and smaller exhaust rockers and if it responds to that then I'd look at positioning the cam straight up.
But before I did anything else at all I'd be pulling the spark back to 30 - 32 and getting the jetting sorted.
But before I did anything else at all I'd be pulling the spark back to 30 - 32 and getting the jetting sorted.
#10
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:00 PM
Thanks again for the input. Afr was well in the rich range never getting above 11.4, so I'm guessing I could gain maybe 5-10 hp there alone. I was spewing as we spent most of the time sorting out mixtures transitioning from idle to mains, and 3 float level changes, so ran out of time. I have a wideband afr with logging i am also playing with and want to get it as close as possible to where it should be for the next dyno run. Is there any magic afr number I should aim for with the 202 or just get it near 13 for now? I. I will play with the valve clearances on the dyno once jetting is spot on.
For WOT, 13:1 should be pretty close?
For WOT, 13:1 should be pretty close?
#11
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 09:22 PM
Don't worry about the numbers, just jet it for best power. I also wouldn't worry too much about anything other than the main jet at WOT on the dyno, all the part throttle stuff you can play with on the road in your own time.
#12
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:12 PM
Air correctors for top end mixture.
What emulsion, main, and air correctors are you running?
+ back the timing off as per earlier post.
What emulsion, main, and air correctors are you running?
+ back the timing off as per earlier post.
#13
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Posted 11 July 2011 - 06:20 PM
So, before I get the car back on the dyno, I thought I would check a few things. I double checked the cam installation and it is spot on at 0.114 lift at tdc on the number 1 inlet. On the dyno, with power stalling early, and up to 6 degrees extra advance making little or no difference to power, I figured the hei may be playing games, so that is off to get tested and spun up to 7500. Having spoken with several of the people involved in the build, the cam as it is installed should be making strong power to 6500. The carbs are up to the task, and whilst the full exhaust may restrict a little, it doesn't explain what is happening. Will try removing the exhaust and tuning the collector on the dyno next time.
Something I wouldn't mind a comment on is my rocker ratio. Peak flow For the head is 183 cfm at .450 lift. With the 1.6 rollers, total valve lift is 530. Should I pull back the rocker ratio to keep valve lift closer to the optimum flow of the head?
Lots of good advice on here and will be giving a few of these tips a shot.
Specs on the weber jetting so far are; 38mm chokes, f2 etubes, 150 mains, 220 airs, 55 pumPs and 55f9 idles. Will need to pull back the mains a little and possibly an air change to 205.
Something I wouldn't mind a comment on is my rocker ratio. Peak flow For the head is 183 cfm at .450 lift. With the 1.6 rollers, total valve lift is 530. Should I pull back the rocker ratio to keep valve lift closer to the optimum flow of the head?
Lots of good advice on here and will be giving a few of these tips a shot.
Specs on the weber jetting so far are; 38mm chokes, f2 etubes, 150 mains, 220 airs, 55 pumPs and 55f9 idles. Will need to pull back the mains a little and possibly an air change to 205.
#14
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 11 July 2011 - 11:01 PM
To go leaner with air correctors you need a larger number. Opposite of mains.
Jetting should be with in the ball park.
Your head flow figures don't sound right for 298hp mentioned earlier. Any chance you can post up full results for head?
Jetting should be with in the ball park.
Your head flow figures don't sound right for 298hp mentioned earlier. Any chance you can post up full results for head?
Edited by Ned Loh, 11 July 2011 - 11:03 PM.
#15
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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:08 PM
Ok, I don't have the head flow data with me however it was actually 294hp at 450 lift. 181 cfm. Had the ignition checked and the coil is up the creek. At about 4800, the coil is failing (tested under load) and is making lots of clicking noises. This is pretty much where the power curve starts to flatten on the dyno. Will need to get it back on the dyno and hopefully this is the problem.
#16
_Liam_
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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:34 PM
Agh well hopefully that will sort it out a bit then mate. Let us know eh?
#17
_Ned Loh_
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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:52 PM
Ok, I don't have the head flow data with me however it was actually 294hp at 450 lift. 181 cfm. Had the ignition checked and the coil is up the creek. At about 4800, the coil is failing (tested under load) and is making lots of clicking noises. This is pretty much where the power curve starts to flatten on the dyno. Will need to get it back on the dyno and hopefully this is the problem.
fingers crossed it's sorted.
will be worth it when you take it for a drive 'open it up'...
#18
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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:37 PM
Took it for a drive this arvo. Feels much stronger. Even the idle quality feels better. Can't quite tell if it's the 30 hp I'm chasing though!
#20
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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:09 PM
did you ever end up getting a final dyno result, also did change the advance/retard the cam timing, ive got the same cam in my rig and the guy who did the head told me to install with it advanced 6 degree. not sure if its worth trying to retard it a couple to see any difference.
#21
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:21 PM
Ended up with 220hp.
I was happy with the cam and left it dialed in at zero. Really good response on the road and good power right through. The cam needs compression.
I'm about to fire up a fresh rebuild with a bigger stick - 629b. The car has become mainly track driven.
Hoping to find a few more hp...
I was happy with the cam and left it dialed in at zero. Really good response on the road and good power right through. The cam needs compression.
I'm about to fire up a fresh rebuild with a bigger stick - 629b. The car has become mainly track driven.
Hoping to find a few more hp...
#22
_NYS 71_
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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:10 PM
nice.. did it make any more power up high or slow up in the low 6000s. mune seems to start giving up about 6200 but never had it on the dyno yet. thats a decent upgrade in stick. should make a few more ponies
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