Hi all.
Firstly I gotta say I'm so glad I stumbled on this forum. So a big g'day to you all. I'm a long time Holden owner having owned just about every model they ever built from my first car, an FB wagon back in '77 to our current family VX wagon. There was a torana lx in the mix as well.
But my question today relates to my 202 marinised red inboard motor in my boat. I know it's a bit off topic but I'd really appreciate any advice.
I don't know the history of this motor but it seems VERY NICE. Someone has either started with a nice stock motor or had it recently rebuilt.
I should mentioned I'm not much of a mechanic, and know probably just enough to get myself into trouble, and not quite enough to find my way out again!
To the boat....I have a REAL LOUD pinging or rattling under load at higher rpms. I call it pinging as that's the best description I can think of but it's way harsher than what you'd expect from low oct fuel or timing issues.
And before anyone offers the suggestion of timing, here's what also happens. I can floor the boat and she goes great (I mean REAL good) but after a short (10 seconds?) time the rattle develops, gets worse, she loses power and I have to throttle back for fear of something breaking. It sounds just like a big tin full of marbles clanging around. A REALY BIG tin with LOTS of LOUD marbles!
If I bring it down to an idle, it's a lumpy 'cammy' loping idle and will often stall. But no pinging. After I restart it, it usually runs fine until I give it some stick. Sometimes even after being switched off for a while it won't run smooth and I've got to squirt the throttle a few times to get her up and going. Under light to 3/4 throttle she runs all day and is as smooth as silk, no rattles, no blowby, just as sweet as!
I have recently replaced the points dizzy with a Bosch hei from a later motor, made sure I have full 12 v at coil (which is also the hei transformer style) and I used all new leads and regapped the plugs to 1.5mm but as i have no timing light i have only been able to set the timing by ear. It starts instantly and idles perfectly and has instant throttle response. Vac advance seems to be working ok.
I didn't notice this issue on the points dizzy prior to changing to the HEI dizzy but I only used the boat once and never really floored it. Thats 'cause on the first day out the old oil filled coil died and we had a bit of a paddle into shore! I figured this was because the old coil was receiving continuous 12 v and cooked. So I replaced it all with the hei.
I thought it could have been fuel starvation under load but the lopey idle has me stumped. I have made sure the fuel tank has a good breather and is not drawing a vacuum, and the glass fuel bowl on the stock fuel pump always looks full even when misbehaving.
I can't tell exactly what the revs are as the tachometer isn't working. But I'm not thrashing it, I'd guess it's around 4,000 revs. I reckon there's still lots more left in her before she starts to ping.
Could this all be due to the lifters pumping up? I've read up all I can on this but nothing seems to sound just like my problem? Would this cause pinging? Or am I hearing 'valve bounce'? It doesn't sound like rattly tappets.
A friend who is a very experienced mechanic (but who hasnt heard it) suggested some 26 thou spacers under the rocker saddles as a try. I just don't know enough about all this and don't want to start playing around with things I'm not too familiar with. The pcv and oil breather system all seems fine. As I said, this motor has NO rattles or noises until this point, has exc oil pressure at speed (pretty low at idle) and seems to be a very quiet motor!
I've read about anti pump up lifters but seem to get mixed opinions as to how well they work. If anyone else feels this is a valve train issue, would I expect any improvements from fitting new springs, and should these be standard springs, and would new standard lifters be worth a try? How much difference would oil and/or oil filter make? I haven't changed either as I was told by the previous owner it'd just been done and certainly the oil looks relatively clean.
The motor runs cool as it's pumping cold water straight from the sea and has no thermostat so maybe the oil is cooler than in a car engine? Cooler oil = thicker oil?
I've tried to explain things in as much detail as I can so as to avoid too many questions establishing what I have and haven't done.
So sorry for the long post. But if anyone can help me shed some light on this, then I'd REALLY appreciate it.
Thanks. Mark
Tricky issues with marinised 202 red
Started by
_Marksboat_
, Feb 03 2013 09:43 AM
202 Lifters Hei Anti pump up Red Valve bounce Pinging
8 replies to this topic
#2
limo
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Posted 03 February 2013 - 07:23 PM
is there a temp guage fitted?
with out thermostat and flow through boat motors often run too cold and need a restriction in the water outlet to control flow and run motor at correct operating temp
I fitted a tap and adjusted it to give me a good temp on guage
the symptoms sound to me like the lifters are sticking or maybe pumping up
would be a harder noise than a ping though much sharper and solid sounding
with out thermostat and flow through boat motors often run too cold and need a restriction in the water outlet to control flow and run motor at correct operating temp
I fitted a tap and adjusted it to give me a good temp on guage
the symptoms sound to me like the lifters are sticking or maybe pumping up
would be a harder noise than a ping though much sharper and solid sounding
#3
_Bomber Watson_
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:36 PM
Your boats #@$^%&, send it to me.....
Seriously, i really want a holden six powered one to replace my crappy veeate powered jigger.
BTT, Mid mount i take it with around a 15 degree skeg? this puts the old six on quiet an angle, i've got a feeling the back (front?) few lifters, #6 and maybe #5 (towards the front of the boat) might not be getting enough oil, this would explian the rattling and also the "cammy idle' when you come back off the throttle while the lifters pump back up.
To get a touch more indepth considering the lifters are oiled off the main oil galley its a bit unlikely that this would happen, but the engine is on a big lean....Another very possible thing is perhaps the rockers and springs on the rearmost (front most, stupid engines being in backwards) cylinders might not get getting enough oil, due to it all running quickly to the front (back, low side) of the engine.....This may cause excessive wear and looselessness in the rockers and the spings may have run to hot and lost there tension causing bounce, lifter pump up and subsequently your noise and cammy idle.....
Im not sure how experienced your mechanic mate is, but only certain holden heads can be shimmed and this would likely make the issue worse if it is that type of head, perhaps he ment shims under the valve springs to stop bounce? Doesnt sound like bounce.
I dunno, i kinda have stuck in my head that it has something to do with the lifters, just the way you describe it and especially the way you describe the idle directly afterwards.
Car engines as mid mounts are a pain in the ass in general, im no where near happy with my boat, and its about 500x better than when i got it....short of pulling the engine out and redesigning half the oiling and cooling system probably as good as i can get it for now though. There not ment to run on such a big angle and the big angle is backwards to how they are designed to run (a slight angle from the front cylinders to the rear)
Cheers.
Seriously, i really want a holden six powered one to replace my crappy veeate powered jigger.
BTT, Mid mount i take it with around a 15 degree skeg? this puts the old six on quiet an angle, i've got a feeling the back (front?) few lifters, #6 and maybe #5 (towards the front of the boat) might not be getting enough oil, this would explian the rattling and also the "cammy idle' when you come back off the throttle while the lifters pump back up.
To get a touch more indepth considering the lifters are oiled off the main oil galley its a bit unlikely that this would happen, but the engine is on a big lean....Another very possible thing is perhaps the rockers and springs on the rearmost (front most, stupid engines being in backwards) cylinders might not get getting enough oil, due to it all running quickly to the front (back, low side) of the engine.....This may cause excessive wear and looselessness in the rockers and the spings may have run to hot and lost there tension causing bounce, lifter pump up and subsequently your noise and cammy idle.....
Im not sure how experienced your mechanic mate is, but only certain holden heads can be shimmed and this would likely make the issue worse if it is that type of head, perhaps he ment shims under the valve springs to stop bounce? Doesnt sound like bounce.
I dunno, i kinda have stuck in my head that it has something to do with the lifters, just the way you describe it and especially the way you describe the idle directly afterwards.
Car engines as mid mounts are a pain in the ass in general, im no where near happy with my boat, and its about 500x better than when i got it....short of pulling the engine out and redesigning half the oiling and cooling system probably as good as i can get it for now though. There not ment to run on such a big angle and the big angle is backwards to how they are designed to run (a slight angle from the front cylinders to the rear)
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 04 February 2013 - 09:46 PM.
#4
_Emu_
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Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:39 PM
It sounds to me like fuel starvation...If you have a fibreglass or plastic fuel tank check it isn't breaking down inside and the pieces of plastic aren't blocking your fuel outlet. Trust me, I had some gremlins with my last boat.
I've owned lots of holden 6 powered ski boats...had a HP 179 woody, 186s engine, hot 202 that I worked.....great times. I moved onto a much newer Chev powered boat as I needed the power to pull us big kids out of the deep and the reliability. It has both and we love it.
Actually, I still have the 202 and all the marine conversion gear to suit it in the shed somewhere
I've owned lots of holden 6 powered ski boats...had a HP 179 woody, 186s engine, hot 202 that I worked.....great times. I moved onto a much newer Chev powered boat as I needed the power to pull us big kids out of the deep and the reliability. It has both and we love it.
Actually, I still have the 202 and all the marine conversion gear to suit it in the shed somewhere
#6
_Marksboat_
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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:25 PM
Hey guys. Ok it's been a while now since I posted this question and thanks to all you good people for offering suggestions.
Firstly, limo, it does run cool, and I have heard of people restricting water flow but in general it sounds as if that is considered to be a rough and ready fix. Perhaps I'll try and find some sort of thermostat to fit. The normal thermostat housing has been replaced with a custom made inlet flange so there's no room for a thermostat in there.....it'd have to be some sort of in line system?
Bomber, where are you mate? Good points, and all sound valid. My motor is actually facing forwards, as in a car with the lean towards the rear of the engine and the prop shaft running off the flywheel end. It's probably around 15 degrees and of course there is a wedge under the carby.
Emu, the fuel starvation was my first thoughts so I checked everything I could.. It's a stainless tank and I drained and replaced fuel, new filter, blew back thru lines and cleared the breather, which WAS blocked and at that point I thought I'd prolly fixed it.......but no such luck. I haven't done anything to the carby which is the standard older stromberg. So other than the carby and or the fuel pump itself, the fuel system should be ok.
Old Johno, would weak valve springs somehow contribute to the cammy idle?
Last week, I replaced the oil with Nulon 10w50 as this is a freer flowing oil, and also a new quality oil filter.......and got old oil all over the bottom of the boat.....next time I'm buying an oil pump to suck it out.....
I took it for a run and the weather was a bit crap so I couldn't open her up as I wanted to, but did get her to about 3/4 throttle and kept her here for ages, and she went flawlessly. I mean REALLY REALLY WELL. starts first spin of the starter and idles smooth as silk.
I don't know what sort of oil was in it but could it be that it was too thick and running cool causing problems with lifters?
Anyway, I'm going to have to wait till I can get a calm day and take her for a fang. Until then, I'm just continuing to replace all the mild steel bolts and stuff with stainless and jest generally tidying her up..
Thanks again you guys and I'll keep you posted..
PS I know this is NOT a torana but I guess a bit of variety now and then keeps things interesting.
PPS I wanted to attach a pic but I'm using an iPad and it doesn't seem to allow me to do so.....any ideas?
Firstly, limo, it does run cool, and I have heard of people restricting water flow but in general it sounds as if that is considered to be a rough and ready fix. Perhaps I'll try and find some sort of thermostat to fit. The normal thermostat housing has been replaced with a custom made inlet flange so there's no room for a thermostat in there.....it'd have to be some sort of in line system?
Bomber, where are you mate? Good points, and all sound valid. My motor is actually facing forwards, as in a car with the lean towards the rear of the engine and the prop shaft running off the flywheel end. It's probably around 15 degrees and of course there is a wedge under the carby.
Emu, the fuel starvation was my first thoughts so I checked everything I could.. It's a stainless tank and I drained and replaced fuel, new filter, blew back thru lines and cleared the breather, which WAS blocked and at that point I thought I'd prolly fixed it.......but no such luck. I haven't done anything to the carby which is the standard older stromberg. So other than the carby and or the fuel pump itself, the fuel system should be ok.
Old Johno, would weak valve springs somehow contribute to the cammy idle?
Last week, I replaced the oil with Nulon 10w50 as this is a freer flowing oil, and also a new quality oil filter.......and got old oil all over the bottom of the boat.....next time I'm buying an oil pump to suck it out.....
I took it for a run and the weather was a bit crap so I couldn't open her up as I wanted to, but did get her to about 3/4 throttle and kept her here for ages, and she went flawlessly. I mean REALLY REALLY WELL. starts first spin of the starter and idles smooth as silk.
I don't know what sort of oil was in it but could it be that it was too thick and running cool causing problems with lifters?
Anyway, I'm going to have to wait till I can get a calm day and take her for a fang. Until then, I'm just continuing to replace all the mild steel bolts and stuff with stainless and jest generally tidying her up..
Thanks again you guys and I'll keep you posted..
PS I know this is NOT a torana but I guess a bit of variety now and then keeps things interesting.
PPS I wanted to attach a pic but I'm using an iPad and it doesn't seem to allow me to do so.....any ideas?
#7
_Marksboat_
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Posted 16 February 2013 - 06:30 PM
I forgot to mention.....as well as changing oil and filter I filled the tank with premium...
One other thing, I bought some new spark plugs as suggested by another member and they didn't fit........the thread is too short......my head has no thread in the spark plug tubes for about the first 3/8 inch so from my research I've concluded it probably is an earlier 186 head. Definitely a 202 block as it has '202' cast into it. Would anyone care to confirm this?
One other thing, I bought some new spark plugs as suggested by another member and they didn't fit........the thread is too short......my head has no thread in the spark plug tubes for about the first 3/8 inch so from my research I've concluded it probably is an earlier 186 head. Definitely a 202 block as it has '202' cast into it. Would anyone care to confirm this?
#8
limo
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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:21 PM
if you have a 186 head then that's a diff story, they are interchangeable.
the rockers on a 186 are adjustable and need to be set correctly to preload the lifters, they can rattle when too loose and clunk when screwed down too much
and I think lifters are diff as well, 186 are fast bleeders
also the push rods for 186 and 202 are diff lengths
been a long time since I worked on these but some one else will have more knowledge or correct me
Edited by limo, 17 February 2013 - 05:22 PM.
#9
_Emu_
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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:30 AM
Yes 186 rockers are adjustable and need to be correctly set.
202 vs 186 pushrods definitely different lengths.
I think the lifters are same.
Life is better with a boat.
Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: 202, Lifters, Hei, Anti pump up, Red, Valve bounce, Pinging
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