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Re stamping engine question

Started by lakeside , Apr 01 2014 06:58 PM

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#1 lakeside

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:58 PM

I was on a dirt bike forum and came another a thread that got thinking. This has to do with 2014 KTM 500 exc with a faulty engine case (leaks oil) that needs to be replace, bikes 22hrs old. The case that needs to be replace has the engine number on it. So the dealer is going to replace the case and re stamp the original number back on to the new case. Is this legal for the same engine number to be used twice?

#2 _skidb_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 07:28 PM

doubt its legal


#3 _nowaynicko_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

How could it be? It's a different engine?


#4 bullitA9X

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:13 PM

I was on a dirt bike forum and came another a thread that got thinking. This has to do with 2014 KTM 500 exc with a faulty engine case (leaks oil) that needs to be replace, bikes 22hrs old. The case that needs to be replace has the engine number on it. So the dealer is going to replace the case and re stamp the original number back on to the new case. Is this legal for the same engine number to be used twice?

 

surely they will destroy the old engine case so there will not be two engine numbers the same its not legal i wouldnt think though as what happens when somone else buys it they will think its the original engine.....


#5 lakeside

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:28 PM

Even with the engine case is returned back to KTM or destroyed by dealership with pictures it's not the original engine.

#6 _Ht69_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:34 PM

Mate you answered your own question, I'm diffinately not having a go you at you thats for sure but it's not legal in any state of Australia to re stamp an engine or chassis number or to transfer ID plates from one car to another and the same applies world wide. There has been quite a few court cases over the last 5 years in australia and various other parts of the world where guys have done this and been caught out. I read this all the time and it amazes me that guys think its ok. imgine buying an engine thinking its from an L34 based on the number and its really from an old HQ ute. I know that vicroads check for this stuff and if they think its been played with its referred to the police. The correct way is to contact vicroads they will issue a new number and then cross reference the system and then no one gets caught.

#7 UCSLE

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

Motorbikes usually have there engine number stamped in unique ways , if it is not stamped correctly you could tell from a mile away. The owner may end up with a worthless bike even if is legal .


#8 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:46 PM

Just keep in mind guys were talking about stamping a new case that currently does not have a number. 

 

So its totally different to grinding the number off a HQ block and stamping a L34 number on it as mentioned above,

 

Kinda like the LSX crate engines you buy from the states, come with no number stamped on them.....

 

As far as the legality of stamping an existing but NS engines number to one of these new, currently unstamped engines, im staying out of that. 


#9 yel327

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:51 PM

It is how blocks were replaced under warranty by GMH in the 70's afaik. Not shorts or long engines, but blocks.


#10 _Ht69_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:54 PM

Bomber I agree it's not the same as an existing engine but the principle is the same, if you were to purchase a Lsx block to get it registered correctly you need to apply for a surrogate engine.

#11 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:58 PM

Yes mate i agree. 

I just thought it was getting a bit out of control with peple comparing it with retagging cars or restamping engines that already have an identifyer. 

 

At the end of the day its Ship of Theseus all over again. 

 

EG, in this exact instance,

 

You would replace the piston and rings and regard it as the same engine. You could replace the crankshaft, bearings, rod, piston, rings, still call it the same engine, throw in the cylinder, the valves, valve springs....Still call it the same engine, then throw in the head, cams cam chain, still call it the same engine? Oil pump, carby, cam cover, stator, still the same engine? 

Keep all the above as stock and switch JUST the case, why is it suddenly a different engine?

 

Not trying to start a shit fight, I just love brain teasers and this, in various different forms, is one thats been amusing me on and off thinking about for months now. 

 

Cheers. 


Edited by Bomber Watson, 01 April 2014 - 08:59 PM.

#12 _Got1UR1_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 08:59 PM

FWIW,    NZ and NT blocks being replacements were stamped with a number, I have a pair of these that do not correspond with the original numbers they replaced.


#13 _SableMet7/73_

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:49 PM

Was told to do the same when doing V6 short block swaps for Mitsi, just transferred the number

& dumped the old 1 in the scrap pile wether warranty or not without destroying the old block number....slack


#14 yel327

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:46 AM

FWIW,    NZ and NT blocks being replacements were stamped with a number, I have a pair of these that do not correspond with the original numbers they replaced.

 

Yes engines and short motors, but not blocks replaced under warranty afaik.


#15 _trna76hb_

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

I work at a mitsubishi dealership and do the warranty claims. We just puta
New engine in a triton,no engine number. Mitsu said just restamp the number.

#16 _LJdave_

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:15 PM

an engine recondioner in Melb often re-stamps the original # back onto blocks when it does the decks, Ive had a few bikes in my time 

and bike blocks are usually 2 piece either verticuler or horrorzonculer split so its not really the whole crank case being replaced, and I think the

cops are supposed to do a VIV  check on the number before it gets stamped and it may even have to have a new number issued to it

thats my 2 bob.  


#17 StephenSLR

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:30 PM

Old Mustangs 1965 and the like didn't have engine numbers, you have to get them stamped if you want to register them here, so what's to stop someone using the same number if they swap engines with an unstamped one? Maybe not legal but who'd be the wiser?

Of course there are numbers cast into the old engines but they're model numbers not serial numbers.

 

s


Edited by StephenSLR, 02 April 2014 - 03:30 PM.

#18 WhaleOilBeefHooked

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:41 PM

Maybe the above words illegal & not Legal should be replaced with Recommended, Because it's plainly obvious that this is widely practised within both Manufacture Replacements & Reconditioning Shops......


#19 _WantOneNow!_

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:58 PM

Hi there, I work for a major european prestige motorcycle brand here in Vic and it is accepted Company policy to restamp the old engine number onto new casings and warranty replacement short/long motors (that are also supplied blank).  This is also done withfaulty/damaged replacement frames.  The old numbers must be photographed before and after being destroyed along with the corresponding VIN sticker, which is then also replaced.

 

Cheers Mick.


#20 RallyRed

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:14 PM

my 2 bobs worth.....

..the only reason the original number is restamped, is to give the IMPRESSION that it is the
original case/block , or whatever.

That IMPRESSION is probably desireable for resale reasons.

It then may be considered as misleading...unless clearly advised to the potential purchaser, upon which there is no drama at all.( forgetting the legalities of it , which I don't pretend to understand )

#21 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:20 PM

God help if you replace the piston rings and dont disclose this to the new buyer....


#22 StephenSLR

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:23 PM

my 2 bobs worth.....

..the only reason the original number is restamped, is to give the IMPRESSION that it is the
original case/block , or whatever.

That IMPRESSION is probably desirable for resale reasons.

 

I agree with that, if done outside the factory.

 

If the manufacturer however replaces the engine, gives it the same number or even a different number and you have the papers to prove that, just as desirable if not more in my opinion, simply because you have a newer/better engine than the first one and it's as factory legit as it can get.

 

s


#23 RallyRed

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:25 PM

oops, sorry Bomber....I replaced the oil filter too....oh the shame...ha ha

#24 Kirk

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:43 PM

Might not be appropriate asking here but if the engine number is deleted while getting the block decked is it illegal to restamp the number back on to the same block it came off?


#25 S pack

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:56 PM

Might not be appropriate asking here but if the engine number is deleted while getting the block decked is it illegal to restamp the number back on to the same block it came off?

Can't see why it should be illegal. The number that was machined off belongs to that engine block so just stamp it back on again.


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