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308 or 450 Holley help please!

Started by _Loki_ , Jul 20 2006 03:14 PM

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21 replies to this topic

#1 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 03:14 PM

Hey legends,

I have a problem that I really need to rectify preferably ASAP as this is my daily and with uni resuming I need it to get there.

Car was driving along beautifully on 98 RON fuel, better than it ever has on Tuesday night, take off from a set of lights slowly and the car stalled dead in it's tracks.
This turned out to simply be an ignition wire to the coil falling off - With that fixed I drove home (Car still running very well).

The next time I tried to drive it (The next night), it feels like it's constantly 'cold' -Temp guage is warming up to 1/4 which is normal for this block

By this I mean it feels sluggish, it's got no get-up and go, if you put your foot lightly on the gas to about 1/4 it has small surges, sometimes very small backfires and backfire pops through the carby etc.
Flat to the floor gearbox still kicks down normally [and still gear changes smoothly isn't sliping etc. so i've ruled out box] and so on.

The exhaust note even sounds different, either like it's running on 6-7 cyls (though pulling off spark plugs one by one shows a drop in revs so i think they're firing) or flooding [it sounds drowned and not as sharp if that makes sense]

For all intents and purposes it feels like the car is permanently cold - Either being flooded with fuel or not enough (also evident by backfires).

I'm looking at the carby as culprit but aside from the car running perfectly one night to the very next night without being started to having these problems I don't know what's going on :<

Carby hasn't been touched, should I just try carby cleaner first? Fiddle with mixtures (though I'm doubting this is going to help) or go straight to pulling it apart and replacing needle/seat and float?
Seems odd that it would happen overnight and a day with the engine off. :<

Cheers.

Edited by Loki, 20 July 2006 - 03:20 PM.

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#2 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 03:39 PM

Took it for a quick spin around the block, after warming it up, if you tap your foot quickly to around the 1/2 way mark it sputters and backfires through the carby :<

It never used to do this, it seems to generally just be running like crap =\

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#3 _UCV80_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:34 PM

Exacly what sarshas is doing at the moment,

sluggish! backfires out carby when u get it any

there like twins

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#4 makka

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:45 PM

your choke isnt sticking on?
electronic dizzy or points? Condition?

I would hit it up with some carb cleaner first and see how you go from there

Edited by makka, 20 July 2006 - 04:46 PM.

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#5 rodomo

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:49 PM

Did you disturb any plug leads to refit the coil wire? Sometimes old leads break internally when you remove and refit them. Leads can be checked with an ohm meter. You are looking for 4000ohms or less per foot. E.g. a 3 foot long lead should be no more than 12000ohms resistance. If you get leads with high readings change them and don't forget the coil lead as it feeds all the others.
Hope this helps!

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#6 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 04:58 PM

Mine was doing this a while back as well. Did you crimp the loose lead so it fits nice and tight? If electronic ignition, it could be the module on the base of the distributor. I thought that was my problem, but turned out to be a loose connection to the coil. Changed it anyway.

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#7 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 06:48 PM

To be honest, you know the suppresor that's on the coil?

Because it was a roadside job and the ingnition wire had come off it's end, i just spliced them together real quick (not even with solder) and stuck it back on.
The wire to the suppresor side is just tapped off on the end (i pulled the wire out cause it was about to break off and I didnt want a live wire sparking on anything metallic under the bonnet).

However, this was FINE for the drive home up until stopping the engine, it's only when I tried to drive it again nearly 24 hours later it's been running like crap.

I am pretty hopeless with wiring and electrics so I will have to wait for my old man to help me with that.
However I simply -CANNOT- see this being the problem.
None of the leads were moved around at the time, I've checked them this afternoon and they're all definately providing the spark plugs.

The only thing I can think of is a hole in the float and it filling with fuel over the ~24 odd hour period that the engine was off? Or a stuck needle/seat or junk filled jets etc.

Otherwise I'm really stumped how else it could run fine then suddenly run like crap for no reason.

Only one I can think of is what Slur suggested and the coil lead to distributor lead, I might go check it now, but I really am doubting this to be the problem too.
Remembering that the car was running flawlessly when it was switched off, and only started to run like crap the next time it was turned over nearly 24 hours later.

And as for choke, it's disconnected and has been since it was in the VB commodore I pulled it out of, and I haven't touched anything on the carby since dropping it in my torry over 7 months ago. :<

Edited by Loki, 20 July 2006 - 06:57 PM.

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#8 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 07:43 PM

^ Played with that, took it for a drive, it's still stuffed.

Anywhere from slightest touch on the accelerator to 1/2 way does practically nothing.
I came around one corner, it backfired through the carby then proceeded to sputter up a small hill, took foot off accelerator and put it back down and it stopped sputtering but was still back on it's very sluggish self.

Is that generally caused from too lean or too rich?
I'm beginning to point my finger at the carby ~_~
Might have to get a new needle and seat and float I guess??

[edit] I should note, it seems to seem like it's idling ok, perhaps a little lower than usual, but it sounds a bit more 'sluggish' on idle at the exhaust though.

This is similar to what my WWStromburg started to do on my 202 before it really shat bricks so I'd like to rectify it, but I don't like buying and putting through carby kits, new plug leads etc. and still winding up with the same problem at the end of the day :<

Edited by Loki, 20 July 2006 - 07:50 PM.

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#9 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 08:12 PM

Sorry about multiple posts (5 min edit timer is stupid).

Thinking its overfuelling, its reaks of fuel, and taking off people say it smells very strongly of fuel as well.

So its either carby giving it excess fuel or its not burning it off >.< I hate this argh
Is there a recommended solvent to pull apart the carby and let it sit in to clean it up, i.e. clean out the jets and so forth? (i.e. fuel? Turps/Metho etc. ? )

Edited by Loki, 20 July 2006 - 08:16 PM.

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#10 _1QUICK LJ_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 10:01 PM

check to see if the dizzy has moved seen that happen a few times, if unsure about plugs let it cool down completely then start it let it run for around 30-40 sec then shut off and feel pipes if any plugs are not fireing those pipes will be cold still.

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#11 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 10:53 PM

^ spark plugs not firing will also be nice and clean, as the fuel will clean them up without any bang happening in the cylinder.

Have a look at the Bosch site, the symptoms on there helped me diagnose mine.

Carbs can gum up over time, however I think it is in the ignition, particularly since it's something that you've recently had troubles with and altered. You will get strong fuel smells if you don't have proper ignition as well.

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#12 _Loki_

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Posted 20 July 2006 - 11:53 PM

^ spark plugs not firing will also be nice and clean, as the fuel will clean them up without any bang happening in the cylinder.

Have a look at the Bosch site, the symptoms on there helped me diagnose mine.

Carbs can gum up over time, however I think it is in the ignition, particularly since it's something that you've recently had troubles with and altered. You will get strong fuel smells if you don't have proper ignition as well.

I thought so too mate, but the only thing that was cahnged was the ignition wire to the coil coming off and being put back on.
It drove fine after that, it was only after it was left for about 24 hours this happened.

Guess i'll have fun this weekend with it ~_~

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#13 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 07:22 AM

It could be a new problem that has coincidently developed at the same time, but odds are against it. Fix up the wiring and see how you go. Breaking down and backfiring under load are tell tale signs of poor connections/intermittency in the ignition.

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#14 rodomo

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 07:43 AM

However I simply -CANNOT- see this being the problem.

Thats the problem with electricity, sometimes you can't SEE it.
Coil lead, module if fitted?, points and in particular condenser if fitted?, module if fitted?, coil its self.

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#15 _Loki_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 02:10 PM

Ok guys, I'm going to buy a new distributor cap for it (because mine isn't the greatest and looks pretty shit and has so since day one).
New points and a new coil --> Distributor lead.
And I willa lso fix the ignitoin --> coil wiring.

I'll do it all at once since it all needs doing anyway so if one of them fixes the problem then goodo.
If not, I'm going to be angry at the carby

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#16 _Loki_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 06:35 PM

Ok guys, need more help :(

I put on new distributor cap, new coil --> distributor lead and new points.

Points are gapped to approx 0.2 with a points file and also tried hacksaw blade.
I'm getting a really really shit spark between the points, it looks more like a welding torch spark rather than a nice clean blue spark across the points!

Failing this I put te old points back in which gave no spark whatsoever.
It appears to be idling fantastic, however put your foot down and flat to the floor in neutral it can't even make it across 3000rpm (not flat to the floor doesn't get it there either), it just backfires and sputters.
Tried playing with the carby mixtures and got it up to 3500 rpm flat to the floor but it simply couldn't rev any higher.

I'm not sure from that, whether i'm having major carburation issues, or major ignitoin issues (as the spark isn't great at the points I'd say ignition, but the carby adjustments getting to higher revs says carby?)

Really lost here guys, is my coil dead? (ammeter/voltmeter seems to indicate the coil is ok?) Is there something else in the distributor that could be causing this problem? All wires in/out from the distributor have good connections, it's just that spark seems to be really terrible!
It didn't have this problem of not revving over 3-3.5k until I played with it today :<

Distributor itself was not moved, only the CAP was replaced with a brand new one.

Cheers.

Edited by Loki, 21 July 2006 - 06:38 PM.

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#17 _1QUICK LJ_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 06:37 PM

if it gets worse the higher the gears go then its prob ignition for sure.

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#18 _Loki_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 06:42 PM

^ I was suspecting that, but I haven't tried taking it for a drive since it can't even neutral rev properly.
Before I started playing with it, it was ok in neutral (though would backfire through the carby occasionally) and under load it was doing what it's now doing in neutral!

It's almost like I've gone backwards in fixing this problem except that on idle it does sound an aweful lot cleaner and sharper.

Don't know why I'm getting a terrible spark at the points or if this is even entirely the problem.

I have new spark plugs to put in but I'm highly doubting that as the problem. More or less got them for the sake of the replacing them when I got everything running properly :<

The backfires are the exhaust rather than the carby now; usually with a nice amount of unburnt fuel.

It's driving me nuts already and I might end up having to cave in and take it to someone to fix, can't affrod to have my car off the road over this annoying problem :/

Edited by Loki, 21 July 2006 - 06:43 PM.

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#19 _Loki_

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Posted 21 July 2006 - 10:40 PM

Smaller Views:post ratio >:|

Please :<

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#20 _1QUICK LJ_

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 01:37 PM

close your points up a bit more, v8s need lots of dwell, a hacksaw blade is too thick for a v8 gap you want about half of that, give that a go mate. you only want about 15thou gap, the more cylinders the motor has the more critcal the gap, too wide and theres just not enough dwell to fire all cylinders properly. a 4 cyl engine will run fine with the hacksaw blade trick but v8s dont like it.

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#21 _Loki_

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 02:50 PM

Awesome

That's exactly what I needed love ya work Quick :spoton:

, finally got it running!.

I'd almost be tempted to say it's kicking along 20-25% better than it's "best" previously.
Off the line it virtually chirps the 205's with a light touch on the throttle, it feels very responsive and pulls very smoothly - it might be leaning out a bit up top; doesn't back fire or anything like that but does feel like it's losing a bit of go.

Essentially I relpaced:

Distributor cap, points, condenser, spark plugs and coil to distrubor lead and adjusted the carby mixtures!

I think the biggest performance gain was from the points finally sparking properly (I dont think the old ones were set right either).

It sounds at idle adn revs a hell of alot smoother than ever before, unfortunately it did sound alot tougher running rougher before

But looking forward to way better fuel economy

Thanks heaps again mate, really can't express how much I appreciate that!

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#22 _1QUICK LJ_

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Posted 22 July 2006 - 10:43 PM

no worries bud ive been in that situation about 15 years ago, my ol man tought me that one. one thing about all this stuff is you learn all the time and you'll never forget it, and you'll end up helping someone else with the same drama one day, funny how most of this sort of knowlege is passed on to others and keeps on going person to person. glad to help :spoton: