23 replies to this topic

[71Ranger]

Hi Red Six Gurus,

 

Ok so today I get my timing light out to check the timing on my 9 month 71 CK engine prefix 186 and to my complete surprise it looks to be about 30 deg advanced at idle with vac off.

  

My questions are:

1) Is the longer mark on the timing cover 5 deg BTDC or 0 deg BTDC 

1) Given that the cam is stock Im thinking the static timing should be around 10 deg BTDC

2) Total should be around 38 deg at approx 2500-3000RPM

3) How do you wind these engines over by hand to check for TDC

 

Cheers Brian 

[S pack]

Hi Brian

 

Dr Terry has advised that the longest mark on the 186 timing cover pad is 5 deg advanced (BTDC)

 

Remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over using the engine fan and always turn the engine fan clockwise.

 

Oldjohnno may be best to answer your other questions.

 

Cheers

Dave.

[71Ranger]

Hi Dave,

I saw that post and was unsure that GMH would break with "tradition" and make the long mark anything other than 0 deg, but I guess this is so.

Hopefully someone else can way in about the timing. I always thought, perhaps incorrectly that 38deg total made up of static plus advanced would do the job.

Anyway thanks for your input as always. Hopefully one day I get to meet you and buy you a beer.

Cheers Brian

[Dr Terry]

OK, this one always causes confusion & the CK XU1 engine is in a very 'grey' area.

 

AFAIK all red motors pre-HQ (i.e. 149, 179, 161 & 186 & also early LC 2250) have the long mark on the timing case as the actual initial timing position which in most cases is 5º BTDC.

 

From HQ on (173, 202 etc.) reverted to the more conventional long mark indicating 0º timing, marked in 2º increments up to 8º.

 

Which leaves the question, which timing case do CK XU1 engines use, because they are the only 186 built after HQ intro. All balancers pre-Blue motor are marked in the same position, so that bit is easily sorted.

 

BTW, to answer the OP's question, it sounds like the balancer's outer ring has slipped & the zero mark is no longer valid. A quick check for no. 1 TDC will tell the story.

 

Dr Terry

[S pack]

OK, this one always causes confusion & the CK XU1 engine is in a very 'grey' area.

 

AFAIK all red motors pre-HQ (i.e. 149, 179, 161 & 186 & also early LC 2250) have the long mark on the timing case as the actual initial timing position which in most cases is 5º BTDC.

 

From HQ on (173, 202 etc.) reverted to the more conventional long mark indicating 0º timing, marked in 2º increments up to 8º.

 

Which leaves the question, which timing case do CK XU1 engines use, because they are the only 186 built after HQ intro. All balancers pre-Blue motor are marked in the same position, so that bit is easily sorted.

 

BTW, to answer the OP's question, it sounds like the balancer's outer ring has slipped & the zero mark is no longer valid. A quick check for no. 1 TDC will tell the story.

 

Dr Terry

Hmmm, an interesting one to say the least Dr Terry.

As you pointed out the 138 (2250) engine also spanned HQ 202 & 173 release and if memory serves me all post HQ release 138 engines were fitted with the 2nd type timing cover.

 

A pic of your timing cover pad please Brian.

 

Cheers

Dave.

[71Ranger]

Im thinking the long mark is most likely 5deg BTDC as it is reasonable to assume that CK initial timing would be around 8-10deg due to the cam change.

 

Therefore it is logical to expect this to be easily set/measured, with long mark being 5deg this would give 9 deg advanced with the remaining two marks. Just a wild and crazy thought.

 

Dr Terry Im almost 100% sure your right about the balancer - this will be todays job to check.

 

Cheers Brian

No worries Dave will post pic

[71Ranger]

Hi Dave,

 

Timing Pad

 TimingPad.jpg   203.83K   7 downloads

 

Pic is a little large - sorry

 

Cheers Brian

[S pack]

Hey Brian

 

Yours is the 149, 161, 179, 186 & early 138 timing cover so the longest timing mark is 5 deg BTDC, the two marks to the left of the 5 deg mark are 8 and 10 deg BTDC.

 

Cheers

Dave.

Edited by S pack, 15 March 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Dr Terry]

Dave, given that the long mark is 5º BTDC & the marks are 2º apart, wouldn't the two marks to the left of the long mark be 7º & 9º ?

 

Also Brian's pic of his CK timing cover answers my query about which cover that engine uses. In that case, is the CK the only Red 6 post-HQ that uses the old style cover ?

 

Dr Terry

[S pack]

The longest mark is also fatter than the short marks so it fills the space between 4 and 6 deg.

After 43 years I believe we may need more evidence to say conclusively which timing cover is correct for the CK 186

 

Cheers

Dave.

Edited by S pack, 15 March 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Dr Terry]

After 43 years I believe we may need more evidence to say conclusively which timing cover is correct for the CK 186

 

Cheers

Dave.

Anyone with info on this ??

 

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

The longest mark is also fatter than the short marks so it fills the space between 4 and 6 deg.

 

Cheers

Dave.

The centreline to centreline distance is the same for all of those marks !! From the centre of the 5º mark to the 7º & the 9º is the same as back the the the 3º & the 1º etc.

 

The way I read the marks on that timing case from the top is:- -3º, -1º, 1º, 3º, 5º, 7º & 9º, with the long one being the 5º. I believe that their intention was that the marks represent 2º either side of the 5º static mark. 

 

Dr Terry

[N/A-PWR]

Hello Brian, Dr Terry and Dave,

 

I measured the Harmonic Balancer, and is 6 inch in diametre,

 

so 6000 x 3.142 / 180 = 0.1047", which is close to 3mm per timing mark of 2°

[S pack]

The short mark directly below and in line with the vertical leg of the R is supposed to be 0 deg, apparently.

 

According to Holdenpaedia.

Edited by S pack, 15 March 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[N/A-PWR]

Well, if the long mark is 5°, then I see the equal spaces like this:-

 

 timing mark.jpg   245.92K   6 downloads

notice the graph showing an accurate equal spacing between each mark.

[N/A-PWR]

6 to 6 1/2 squares per mark

[71Ranger]

Hi Dave, Dr Terry & Dave,

 

Thanks for that - so Im clear the long mark is 5deg BTDC and the two marks to the left (advanced) side are 7 and 9 BTDC.

 

Dave (SPack) it would be nice to dig up a few more CK's and check what timing pad they have. (John Gong may have view on this)

 

Two more questions I have now confirmed that my balancer has slipped as the timing mark is a good bit off when the rotor lines up with the cyl 1 mark on the dizzy.

 

1) So where do I re-nick the balancer with the rotor in this position?

2) What is the initial timing for a CK engine?

 

Thanks for your help

 

Cheers Brian

[N/A-PWR]

Hi Brian,

 

remove the #1 spark plug, and with a screw driver, you can feel the piston raising to the top,

 

and also as the rotor is aproaching the #1 mark in the dizzy,

 

stop when piston is top-most and mark the harmonic balancer at zero degrees. 

1) So where do I re-nick the balancer with the rotor in this position?

 

Thanks for your help

 

Cheers Brian

[Dr Terry]

Don't bother remarking the balancer, it will only move a bit more tomorrow.

 

They're cheap enough, just replace it.

 

From memory, all XU1s had an initial timing setting of 10º.

 

Dr Terry

[N/A-PWR]

you will know if the timing mark is close,

 

by drawing a line from the timing mark towards the centre,

 

which will pass the start of the long elongated slot,

 

and the key-way centre line is about a 1/4 inch off that line:-

 

http://www.aussiespe...ner-300x225.jpg

 

I checked mine, and is the same.

Edited by NA-PWR, 15 March 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[71Ranger]

Okay, so a new balancer it is, suggestions on where to get a period correct one?

 

Thanks for the help

 

Cheers Brian

[N/A-PWR]

not sure about period correct,

 

but here is one:-

 

http://www.ebay.com....id=796862776204

[71Ranger]

They look pretty good but farcking expensive, this little car is keeping me broke.

 

On a much brighter note I ran a comp test as well ranges from 150 to 153 

 

And my new 3568 timing light is a beast.

 

Cheers Brian