so is that crap or what?
water injection?
Started by
_uglybob_
, Jul 28 2006 03:50 PM
32 replies to this topic
#1
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 July 2006 - 03:50 PM
hey guys this old tech instructor at tafe was saying he used to set up this water injection on cars, has anyone herd of that before?? he sed he used to drill into the carbi and hav a litle nozzle that worked like another venturie where the water was sucked into the fuel and air mixture. sounded like crap to me but he was serious he rekon u could advance it up even more with this thingy.
so is that crap or what?
so is that crap or what?
#2
A9X
View Garage
-
- Members
-
- 5,024 posts
A fortunate run
- Name:Welby
- Location:Perth
- Joined: 09-November 05
View Garage
Posted 28 July 2006 - 03:52 PM
No Siree Bob.
Not crap, water injection is a genuine mod and i'll leave it to those more technical than i to explain it.
Welby
Not crap, water injection is a genuine mod and i'll leave it to those more technical than i to explain it.
Welby
#3
Litre8
-
- Administrators
-
- 2,399 posts
Thrillseeker
- Name:Howard
- Location:Melbourne, Victoria
- Car:1976 LX SLR8000
- Joined: 05-February 07
Posted 28 July 2006 - 04:04 PM
Yes, these thing were popular'ish back in the late 70's/early 80's. They allowed cars with high comp to survive on the crap octane fuel back then without retarding the timing by introducing atomised water into the combustion process. This provided some detonation suppression as well as cleaning up the combustion chamber.
Some units were basic ecu controlled, some used a pump, others relied on just vacuum.
These are still around and some are pretty sophisticated..Water Injection Unit
Some units were basic ecu controlled, some used a pump, others relied on just vacuum.
These are still around and some are pretty sophisticated..Water Injection Unit
#4
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 July 2006 - 04:59 PM
bloody hell i thought he had me on he was saying something about the fuel particles stick to the water and something happens wen they spark up.
sorri about all the bloody posts i didnt think it was working. can i delete them?
stupid me
sorri about all the bloody posts i didnt think it was working. can i delete them?
stupid me
#5
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 July 2006 - 05:02 PM
well ill be. cheers for that. hav you used it before?
#6
_big chris_
_big chris_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 July 2006 - 05:27 PM
Hey uglybob,
Dont think is crap,
water or water methanol is used to stop detonation in high compression ratio engines.
Found some information on this topic,
and have heard of it before,
but had never really researched it.
A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930�s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol.
The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection.
The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection.
Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the �automatic power reserve system (APR)� for use in hot or high altitude take off.
It surfaced again in the 60�s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
I found a few sites that have information.
http://website.lineo...c/mannject.html
http://www.rallycars...rInjection.html
http://autospeed.dri...intArticle.html
Check it out,
Cheers
Chris
Dont think is crap,
water or water methanol is used to stop detonation in high compression ratio engines.
Found some information on this topic,
and have heard of it before,
but had never really researched it.
A brief History:
Water injection was evaluated scientifically in the 1930�s by H. Ricardo who demonstrated that one can basically double the power output of an engine using water/methanol.
The first widespread use was during WWII on supercharged and turbocharged aircraft. In 1942, the German Luftwaffe increased the horsepower of the Focke-Wulf 190D-9 fighter aircraft from 1776HP to 2240HP using 50/50% water/methanol injection.
The allies soon followed by fitting the P51 Mustang and other high performance aircraft with water/methanol injection.
Following the war, the turboprop aircraft industry used water/methanol injection and called it the �automatic power reserve system (APR)� for use in hot or high altitude take off.
It surfaced again in the 60�s when GM used a system on the OEM turbo Corvair. It was used effectively in Formula 1 before being banned for adding too much power.
I found a few sites that have information.
http://website.lineo...c/mannject.html
http://www.rallycars...rInjection.html
http://autospeed.dri...intArticle.html
Check it out,
Cheers
Chris
#7
_uglybob_
_uglybob_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 July 2006 - 05:33 PM
far out maybe i should get into it if its gonna double my power! thankx for that very comprehensive feed back thats quite interesting ill hav to appologise to the old fella!
#8
Tiny
-
- Administrators
-
- 10,018 posts
Oh My, Don't you post alot
- Name:Tiny
- Location:Sydney
- Joined: 04-February 07
Posted 28 July 2006 - 10:55 PM
Hey Guys,
I Merged all the topics into this one.. So appologies if it reads a littel funny.
Unfortunately 4 people responded to 4 different topics.. so i had to make it all one!
Cheers!
I Merged all the topics into this one.. So appologies if it reads a littel funny.
Unfortunately 4 people responded to 4 different topics.. so i had to make it all one!
Cheers!
#9
_73LJWhiteSL_
_73LJWhiteSL_
-
- Guests
Posted 29 July 2006 - 12:54 PM
From what i understand, you can do a really cheap water injection setup by sticking a needle into the vacum line (from the dizzy) and hooking that up to a bottle of water. I don't know how this would go, but i know of others who have done it.
To get the benefit you really need to advance the timing however. From what i understand the water simply means you can advance the timing further without pinging... therefore gaining extra power from more advanced timing.
Do a search on google and see what you can turn up.
Steve
To get the benefit you really need to advance the timing however. From what i understand the water simply means you can advance the timing further without pinging... therefore gaining extra power from more advanced timing.
Do a search on google and see what you can turn up.
Steve
#10
limo
-
- Members
-
- 2,673 posts
Lotsa Posts!
- Location:Adelaide
- Car:most Torana models, Jag, Vauxhall, Triton, Staesman
- Joined: 24-May 06
Posted 29 July 2006 - 03:33 PM
I used it yrs ago on a turbo set up-, had pressure switch in inlet manifold that turned on washer pump when boost came in and forced fine spray of water
into manifold after turbo. running in boat with 16 lb boost.
Don't know if it made any difference but motor lasted 3 seasons I raced turbo.
into manifold after turbo. running in boat with 16 lb boost.
Don't know if it made any difference but motor lasted 3 seasons I raced turbo.
#11
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 29 July 2006 - 07:07 PM
heres a high pressure water /alcohol kit i purchased of ebay
150 psi pump quick release fittings
150 psi pump quick release fittings
#12
Tiny
-
- Administrators
-
- 10,018 posts
Oh My, Don't you post alot
- Name:Tiny
- Location:Sydney
- Joined: 04-February 07
Posted 29 July 2006 - 07:16 PM
Unreal mate, can i ask where you set that? Above the carby in the air cleaner?
#13
_chevy_253_torana_
_chevy_253_torana_
-
- Guests
Posted 29 July 2006 - 09:14 PM
so what sort of perfomance gains are we talking here and more importantly what price?
what sort of engines can this be done to ?
what sort of engines can this be done to ?
#14
mrlctorana
-
- Members
-
- 572 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:North-West Tassie
- Joined: 17-January 06
Posted 29 July 2006 - 11:09 PM
Hey Guys, Interesting topic, something i've been meaning to look into as i have real issues with my High Compression 202, and the crap fuel we have here.
How would I go about setting up water injection on a 202 with triple dellortoes, It is a 12 port so i'd need 6 injectors into the manifold. Are there kits available for this application and if so what would i be looking at cost wise. As for perfonce issues im unable to run any more than 3 degrees advanced with out it pinging off it's nut, How much more advance would this allow me to run, up to 12 degrees???
Cheers
Les
How would I go about setting up water injection on a 202 with triple dellortoes, It is a 12 port so i'd need 6 injectors into the manifold. Are there kits available for this application and if so what would i be looking at cost wise. As for perfonce issues im unable to run any more than 3 degrees advanced with out it pinging off it's nut, How much more advance would this allow me to run, up to 12 degrees???
Cheers
Les
#15
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 30 July 2006 - 01:32 AM
ok guys that kit i showed you is made in USA by be cool ebay item number 230011134077 $179 us dollars $39 post
with is about $290 aussi dollers to your door in 6/ 10 day us air postage!
it pumps 150 psi throught diffrent sized jets to suit your hp and engine needs
there activated by boost press switch but if you are using one on a norm assp engine he makes vac switchers two triger it. in a v8 you would mount the injector
in the side of a 2inch holley spacer plate but you could spray it in over the top of the carbi two, you can run more then one injector
and for your webers strait in to the runers on the manifold the injectors come in sizers from 60cc to 1000cc
oh and tiny i am mounting mine in just after the turbo near the hose that goes to the strata 5 inlet manifold
cheers all
with is about $290 aussi dollers to your door in 6/ 10 day us air postage!
it pumps 150 psi throught diffrent sized jets to suit your hp and engine needs
there activated by boost press switch but if you are using one on a norm assp engine he makes vac switchers two triger it. in a v8 you would mount the injector
in the side of a 2inch holley spacer plate but you could spray it in over the top of the carbi two, you can run more then one injector
and for your webers strait in to the runers on the manifold the injectors come in sizers from 60cc to 1000cc
oh and tiny i am mounting mine in just after the turbo near the hose that goes to the strata 5 inlet manifold
cheers all
Edited by dave720gtr, 30 July 2006 - 01:44 AM.
#16
_coupe202_
_coupe202_
-
- Guests
Posted 30 July 2006 - 02:12 PM
you could make that kit yourself for about $150.
dave720gtr what carby are you using on your turbo setup.
best spot to fit the nozzle is in between the carby and turbo and dont use straight water.
dave720gtr what carby are you using on your turbo setup.
best spot to fit the nozzle is in between the carby and turbo and dont use straight water.
#17
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 30 July 2006 - 07:35 PM
I am using a 45mm weber to start with but from what every ones saying i am wasting my time ! a holley is easier two set up and tune, will see ,i have a Air/Fuel Ratio broad band tuning tool with a bosch 5 wire sniffer
as for spraying Alcohol in before the turbo ?? ice is formed when you
run alcohol through a draw through set up . mixing 25% 75% water may be all
right before , you are right you could build one cheaper , maby useing a
cold start injector and a high press fuel pump of a old volvo or some thing
if you got the time to spend looking around wrecking yards
cheers
as for spraying Alcohol in before the turbo ?? ice is formed when you
run alcohol through a draw through set up . mixing 25% 75% water may be all
right before , you are right you could build one cheaper , maby useing a
cold start injector and a high press fuel pump of a old volvo or some thing
if you got the time to spend looking around wrecking yards
cheers
#18
limo
-
- Members
-
- 2,673 posts
Lotsa Posts!
- Location:Adelaide
- Car:most Torana models, Jag, Vauxhall, Triton, Staesman
- Joined: 24-May 06
Posted 30 July 2006 - 08:10 PM
I used 45 weber on my race boat and it worked great once I over came fuel flow
problem. couldn't get enough fuel into carby under high boost ,sucked it out faster than it went in, then one day chatting with another customer at carby place he had sprint car and he drilled 1/8 bit through seat and used holley soft tip needle, I did same & went like rocket.
the best race motors back then had fuel injection with 2 sets of injectors, 1 facing
forward & 1 backward.
I used CD175 on road cars. water injection great under heavy load uphill no pinging lots grunt 9-12 lb boost.
problem. couldn't get enough fuel into carby under high boost ,sucked it out faster than it went in, then one day chatting with another customer at carby place he had sprint car and he drilled 1/8 bit through seat and used holley soft tip needle, I did same & went like rocket.
the best race motors back then had fuel injection with 2 sets of injectors, 1 facing
forward & 1 backward.
I used CD175 on road cars. water injection great under heavy load uphill no pinging lots grunt 9-12 lb boost.
#19
limo
-
- Members
-
- 2,673 posts
Lotsa Posts!
- Location:Adelaide
- Car:most Torana models, Jag, Vauxhall, Triton, Staesman
- Joined: 24-May 06
Posted 30 July 2006 - 08:11 PM
machine playing up?
told me it failed, error message
told me it failed, error message
Edited by limo, 30 July 2006 - 08:13 PM.
#20
_coupe202_
_coupe202_
-
- Guests
Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:09 PM
all you need is a vdo adjustable hobbes switch a large washer bottle and petrol solenoid that is used on lpg converisions and you just use the washer bottle pump and all have to make up are different jet sizes. you would pump about 30 to 60ml of methanol per ten seconds.
i had the same problems with the weber fuel bowl running out of fuel so i just went for a quady. and straight methanol worked the best.
the problem with running the water injection after the turbo is that the air temperature is going to be to hot. and will not have enough time to cool the air before it hits the cylinders.
i had the same problems with the weber fuel bowl running out of fuel so i just went for a quady. and straight methanol worked the best.
the problem with running the water injection after the turbo is that the air temperature is going to be to hot. and will not have enough time to cool the air before it hits the cylinders.
#21
Tiny
-
- Administrators
-
- 10,018 posts
Oh My, Don't you post alot
- Name:Tiny
- Location:Sydney
- Joined: 04-February 07
Posted 30 July 2006 - 09:20 PM
No worries about the double posts guys.. if you get the error.. just press F5.. dont click back and it USUALLY only posts once. ( The post always goes though so far the first time!).
Cheers.
Cheers.
#22
_mike_nofx_
_mike_nofx_
-
- Guests
Posted 30 July 2006 - 11:53 PM
I run a draw through turbo set up, with water injection. So the water goes through the turbo.
The manifold that connects the twin SU's to the turbo sometimes gets cold enough that it builds up condensation. I use water only.
Its a washer bottle and pump, which is activated by boost, you can adjust how much boost is needed before it starts the pump up. I have mine set up so it comes on at almost 0 boost...
I think i have the pump set up to spray 150ml a minute. Im not sure if thats enough or too much... anyone help?
The manifold that connects the twin SU's to the turbo sometimes gets cold enough that it builds up condensation. I use water only.
Its a washer bottle and pump, which is activated by boost, you can adjust how much boost is needed before it starts the pump up. I have mine set up so it comes on at almost 0 boost...
I think i have the pump set up to spray 150ml a minute. Im not sure if thats enough or too much... anyone help?
#23
_dave720gtr_
_dave720gtr_
-
- Guests
Posted 31 July 2006 - 04:38 PM
The old washer bottle /pump is ok if you dont have a lot to spend
and it works realy well if you set it up the way coup202 said !
on turbo draw through or supercharged engine ,
But the washer pump ?there not made to handle alcohol. is no good for spraying in after the turbo ,
Dosnt pump the psi . and after some reserch my thourghts are theres no way that a washer pump would perform as well as one of these new kits with a 150psi
you would have to be crazy to inject it before the turbo, + you can run 100%
alcohol with out harming the turbo , thay dont recomend this . and on a Injected turbo car be cool" say spray it in to the pipe exiting the intercooler.
cheers
and it works realy well if you set it up the way coup202 said !
on turbo draw through or supercharged engine ,
But the washer pump ?there not made to handle alcohol. is no good for spraying in after the turbo ,
Dosnt pump the psi . and after some reserch my thourghts are theres no way that a washer pump would perform as well as one of these new kits with a 150psi
you would have to be crazy to inject it before the turbo, + you can run 100%
alcohol with out harming the turbo , thay dont recomend this . and on a Injected turbo car be cool" say spray it in to the pipe exiting the intercooler.
cheers
#24
makka
-
- Members
-
- 3,559 posts
A m��se once bit my sister
- Name:Cohen
- Location:ya daughters place
- Joined: 08-November 05
Posted 31 July 2006 - 05:26 PM
it seem to work pretty well for coupe202, his car has run some pretty quick times
http://www.ras.com.a...VS_Coupe202.mpg
http://www.ras.com.a...VS_Coupe202.mpg
#25
_coupe202_
_coupe202_
-
- Guests
Posted 31 July 2006 - 06:30 PM
just remember that if you put the nozzle in front of the turbo on a draw through system the turbo will suck the water or methanol even on idle so just think how much water or methanol it will suck when its on boost.
also running water only it will chip and damage the comp wheel
the only reason i say this becauce i had a 202 with carby and runnning 18 to 20 psi and making the methanol came in about 10 to 12 psi.
also running water only it will chip and damage the comp wheel
the only reason i say this becauce i had a 202 with carby and runnning 18 to 20 psi and making the methanol came in about 10 to 12 psi.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
