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Race Engine holden 6 bearing clearances - discussion


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#1 _Agent 34_

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 06:02 PM

Just wanted to hear other older more experienced members of the GMH torana and their thoughts on race engine bearing clearance.

 

 

I'll kick it off.

 

I had a discussion with a HQ engine builder that runs the following;

 

2.5 on mains 

1.8 - on everything else ,  i should have listened harder  on what the 1.8 referred to but assumed it was the big ends - he did say that 1.8 is a little on tight side. 

 

But runs a 15/ 40 weight oil and no thicker..

 

Now i know it's 3 - 3 and 3 for a race engine but is there any discussion on running lower clearances and also a thinner oil. I presume that wider clearances mean lower pressure ?

 

 

After discussions with him we discussed that @ 6 RPM i only had 25-30 PSI and this was not enough- I should have had 60 at least given the revs.

 

 

looking for some sensible input and facts and not wild claims.

 

excuse me on the above as it was an off hand discussion whilst looking at my head off my other motor which had bent valves. What he is saying is 1.2 off standard practice.

 

G



#2 ozyozyozy

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:27 PM

Drag race engines they tend to run clearances a little tighter.
Circuit style engines tend to run a little more open to allow for movement and heat.
Oil pressure, general rule is 10psi for every 1000rpm.
Have seen engines survive at consistant 7000rpm with 45-50psi tho.

#3 _Muzzy_

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:40 PM

My 10 cents
Mains and big end .002"
Cam bearing are an issue, and an easy way to drop pressure
Lifter bores are also an issue to oil drop pressure

I would refer to Old Johno book " how to build a high performance six" it has a lot of good information

#4 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:51 PM

My new engine will have .003 on the mains and .002 on the big ends, thats running spool rods though, would go .0025 if using Holden rods. 

 

Street/strip. 

 

Cheers. 



#5 N/A-PWR

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 07:58 PM

Great thread Grant,

 

 and if you don't mind me butting in,

 

 have also read that clearances can be as little as 0.001 in race engines.

 

 

I know personally,

 

 that the standard high mileage holden L6 red short motors,

 

(worn out clearances, using a High volume JP Oil Pump)

 

 last revving continuously up to 7500rpm for 4000km on normal oil,

 

 before the big end goes.

 

 

So minimum clearances will make the Engine last longer.



#6 _STRAIGHTLINEMICK_

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 08:12 PM

I usually aim for .002 on big ends and 002-003 on mains using 20w50 castrol. Std volume pump is fine with these clearances at any rpm , just do whatever is necessary to get oil down to the pickup and your engine will live a happy life .

#7 ozyozyozy

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 08:14 PM

Min clearances also mke them less forgiving during oil starvation periods.
With oil sloshing around it is easy for the pump to suck an air bubble, a 1mm bubble when going through a bearing can be squashed to look about 10mm in dia.
Yes some engine do run tight clearances but they also pre heat oil, coolant and the entire engine before even thinking about flicking the starter switch.

#8 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 08:48 PM

looking for some sensible input and facts and not wild claims.

 

Good luck, you're gonna need it.

 

Drag race engines they tend to run clearances a little tighter.
Circuit style engines tend to run a little more open to allow for movement and heat.
Oil pressure, general rule is 10psi for every 1000rpm.
Have seen engines survive at consistant 7000rpm with 45-50psi tho.

 

Pressure tells you nothing conclusive. And the rules of thumb only apply to specific engines, the little six will generally have lower pressure at lower revs. But again, it means nothing. All that matters is that there is sufficient flow volume to cool and lubricate the bearings.

Let's say you are led to believe (through some braindead rule-of-thumb) your engine lacks oil pressure. To "correct" the problem you reduce the bearing clearances and perhaps run a thicker oil as well. Congratulations; you've just reduced the volume of oil flowing through the bearings and increased the bleed-off through places where it doesn't really matter. Your oil pressure gauge just convinced you to make your engine worse.

 

My 10 cents
Mains and big end .002"
Cam bearing are an issue, and an easy way to drop pressure
Lifter bores are also an issue to oil drop pressure
 

 

Yes, lifter bores can bleed off a hell of a lot of oil.

 

I usually aim for .002 on big ends and 002-003 on mains using 20w50 castrol. Std volume pump is fine with these clearances at any rpm , just do whatever is necessary to get oil down to the pickup and your engine will live a happy life .

 

Mick is spot on as usual. Keep the pickup covered and everything is fine.

 

Min clearances also mke them less forgiving during oil starvation periods.
With oil sloshing around it is easy for the pump to suck an air bubble, a 1mm bubble when going through a bearing can be squashed to look about 10mm in dia.
Yes some engine do run tight clearances but they also pre heat oil, coolant and the entire engine before even thinking about flicking the starter switch.

 

Keeping the pickup covered is the biggest single thing you can do to keep the engine alive. The trouble is even a very brief gulp of air takes a long time to purge. Oil pumps will pump oil very well but they are shit at pumping air. So when they swallow a little air that air just sits there in the pump until the downstream pressure has dropped right down to zero, allowing the air to exit the pump. This might take a while, and then of course you still have to push the air through the engine. So the bearings could have no real supply of oil for quite a while. This is why dry sump systems work so well - no matter how much the car is jerked around the engine has an uninterrupted supply of oil. And be aware that too much oil in the sump can be as bad as not enough - it can become aerated badly if the level is high. Incidentally, thin oils release entrapped air much quicker than thick oils.

 

If you're not losing oil to places it shouldn't be going - lifter bores or cam bearings for instance - then any half reasonable bearing clearance will be just fine.


Edited by oldjohnno, 17 April 2016 - 08:50 PM.


#9 warrenm

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 10:50 PM

What Mick & oldjohnno said.. Keep the pickup covered.

#10 _oldjohnno_

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 06:00 AM

Might just add this before the Brad Penn/Joe Gibbs fanboys chime in: almost any old oil is fine so long as its supply is uninterrupted and it isn't too badly aerated. 



#11 _Agent 34_

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:24 PM

thanks all for your input it's much appreciated.

 

I have another question - what is the process of determining the cam bearing clearances and are these set or can they be fitted or adjusted on the cam journal  by eg removing more metal from the cam and then re finishing. Is there any need for this type of " fitting/ clearance of the journal into the bearing  in this area".

 

 

I have seen some direct flow devices into back and front cam journal and was wondering what the benefit of this really is apart from supply a direct oil feed into the cam bearings which does not flow through the motor.

 

thanks in advance.

 

G

 

ps beats talking about dual stamp stuff.


Edited by Agent 34, 18 April 2016 - 07:29 PM.


#12 _Muzzy_

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:36 PM

thanks all for your input it's much appreciated.
 
I have another question - what is the process of determining the cam bearing clearances and are these set or can they be fitted or adjusted on the cam journal  by eg removing more metal from the cam and then re finishing. Is there any need for this type of " fitting/ clearance of the journal into the bearing  in this area".
 
G
 
ps beats talking about dual stamp stuff.


I just fitted cam bearing to my build, as I fitted each bearing I fitted the cam and ensured it was rotating but not loose, I fitted the cam when all bearing were in place and removed and looked for shiny spots and then removed them until the cam was neat and rotated nicely




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