22 replies to this topic

[Redzone]

A little bit of background:

For a few years now I've heard some Ford loving guys i know spout some little gems here and there about Holden having taken their designs from Opel well before the Gemini and Commodore hit the market.

However these two I've come across take the cake.


I think we all know about the European origins of the HB Torana and the following LC LJ.. These people seem to think that the LH onwards Torana is nothing more than a reskinned Opel Ascona. They also seem to believe the early model Holdens have Opel bones too in the K.A.D range of cars.

Yes there are some family resemblances, but the Opel cars are always smaller than the Holden range, and there are notable differences in the glasshouse and other parts of the vehicle not easily changed by a reskin.. Often you will also find the Opel they think a Holden is based on has actually come out AFTER the Holden..

I'd love to find some underbody shots of the mid 70s Ascona and mid 60s Opel K.A.D. range, and compare them to the Holden product. Has anyone looked very hard into this before?

Obviously gmh designers and engineers were often seconded around the world to different branches of gm. So there is a definite family resemblance happening n the worldwide gm range. But this thread actually popped up in a post about styling designs for the HK Monaro in a fb group, ironically some of the pics are dated 1965 which is before the full-sized Opel coupe that they say is the Monaro's forebear actually came out...

Anyways check this out if you are bored..

https://m.facebook.c...330&ref=m_notif

Edited by Redzone, 24 January 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Page not found

[StephenSLR]

For a few years now I've heard some Ford loving guys i know spout some little gems here and there about Holden having taken their designs from Opel well before the Gemini and Commodore hit the market.

 

Who cares? All car designers take influence from each other, some manufacturers forego the design and just slap on some badges.

 

Don't waste your time arguing with Ford/Chev/Mopar guys, it's a never ending debate, most grow out of it after leaving school, soon they'll be arguing petrol vs. electric, it never ends. Appreciate your car for what it is; move on and leave the bickering to the children.

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 25 January 2017 - 07:31 AM.

[StephenSLR]

.

Edited by StephenSLR, 25 January 2017 - 07:32 AM.

[yel327]

Tell them that GMH designed the XA Falcon and see what they say. This means Ford Australia did bugger all, they are either US designs or GMH (or facelifts thereof). Of course the Monaro looks US based - it is a John Schinella design, he was here for the purpose. Google what else he penned when he went back to Pontiac. The HQ coupe also looks US, as it is a stillborn GM design that was sent here to replace the GMH HQ design which was dumped (which somehow became the XA).

Edited by yel327, 25 January 2017 - 08:03 AM.

[StephenSLR]

The list goes on,

 

 

 

^^ Opel Manta

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 25 January 2017 - 08:20 AM.

[yel327]

Leo Pruneau designed the HA and HB before he came here and was involved with further development of the Torana. GM designs are all linked by their designers that moved around. The Schroder's (husband and wife designers Ted and Marjorie) were bought to GMH for the HT, Marjorie did the HT interiors which flowed into Torana. She bought with her the US designs like Houndstooth.

[Redzone]

Tell them that GMH designed the XA Falcon and see what they say. This means Ford Australia did bugger all, they are either US designs or GMH (or facelifts thereof). Of course the Monaro looks US based - it is a John Schinella design, he was here for the purpose. Google what else he penned when he went back to Pontiac. The HQ coupe also looks US, as it is a stillborn GM design that was sent here to replace the GMH HQ design which was dumped (which somehow became the XA).

How did that happen? Got a link to any reading material?

[Dr Terry]

Interestingly the original 48 series (FX) was destined to be a pre-WW2 Opel Olympia. Obviously WW2 changed those plans. The long-held belief was that it was designed as a 'small Chev', but that was not the case.

 

I believe that the LH/LX Torana was an in-house GM-H design & was basically a down-sized HQ/HJ.

 

It is immaterial anyhow, as all GM divisions outside the USA had to get Detroit approval & that usually meant a few tweaks by the Yanks.

 

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Compare the 1964 Mustang to a 1962 Renault Caravelle ... just saying !! 

What about the an early Toyota Celica liftback versus a Mustang fastback ?

 

Dr Terry

[StephenSLR]

Compare the 1964 Mustang to a 1962 Renault Caravelle ... just saying !! 

 

 

I'm not so sure I can see much of the Mustang but I can see other cars in that.

They all steal from each other and openly admit it, the midyear Corvette was directly influenced by the E-type Jag which was popular at the time.

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 25 January 2017 - 12:26 PM.

[StephenSLR]

What about the an early Toyota Celica liftback versus a Mustang fastback ?

 

Dr Terry

 

Yeah that's heavily influenced by the Mustang. The Japanese are notorious for taking a design and building their own versions, sometimes ideas that others discard and they improve the concept and get good results.

 

s

[yel327]

How did that happen? Got a link to any reading material?

No-one knows how but a photo tells the story. I can't post it though but one day we'll see.

[Max's SS]

What about the an early Toyota Celica liftback versus a Mustang fastback ?

 

Dr Terry

 

77 Toyota celica. One of my cars from the past.

 

[StephenSLR]

77 Toyota celica. One of my cars from the past.

 

a.k.a. The Japanese Mustang, 20 years after the similar Mustang versions

 

 

 

If you want to stick it to the Ford guys bring up how the Fusion/Mondeo is an Aston Martin rip off.

 

s

Edited by StephenSLR, 25 January 2017 - 03:06 PM.

[Tyre biter]

Yeah,

But let's not talk how 'Australia's car', the Commodore was a face-lifted and up-sized Opel.

I spent 2005 in Europe with work and from Jordan to Holland saw time and time again 'our' car with a tweak - since learned the BS about the Commodore powing more than it origin/DNA in Opel - the architecture more like.

I think VE Commodore was the first clean-sheet design by Holden since what, Torana LH/LX/UC and Kingswood HQ/HJ/HX/HZ?

And Yel, re: XA roots in a GM design - this is intriguing - you can't tell/show or won't tell/show?

 

1978 Opel Senator

 

1978 Opel Reckord

 

1978 Commodore VB

 

1988 Opel Senator

 

1988 VN Commdoore

 

1998 Opel Omega

 

 

1998 VT Commodore

Edited by Tyre biter, 25 January 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[rodomo]

It's well documented the aussie engineers widened the body of the commodore after the sales drop of the VB-VL range and sold it to Europe.

[Tyre biter]

I think it's the other way around.
VB is a conglomeration of Senator and Reckord.
VN was pretty much a widened Senator and VT similarly is a widened Omega.
These Holden cars and their subsequent model/platform variants came from abroad.
I believe the Omega was also facelifted as a Cadillac Catera for a period and so only Monaro (VT coupe) went the other way - Vauxhall VXR8 in the UK and Pontiac GTO in the USA.
Having said that, it's been a while since Commodores were my thing and so my recollection isn't as it once was.
And yes, whilst these links are well documented nowadays, they weren't always and indeed the sales pitch at the time for each if these models retained the Australian car, for Australia and by Australia outlook - was a bit misleading is all.
Cheers, TB

Edited by Tyre biter, 25 January 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[yel327]

Yeah,
But let's not talk how 'Australia's car', the Commodore was a face-lifted and up-sized Opel.
I spent 2005 in Europe with work and from Jordan to Holland saw time and time again 'our' car with a tweak - since learned the BS about the Commodore powing more than it origin/DNA in Opel - the architecture more like.
I think VE Commodore was the first clean-sheet design by Holden since what, Torana LH/LX/UC and Kingswood HQ/HJ/HX/HZ?
And Yel, re: XA roots in a GM design - this is intriguing - you can't tell/show or won't tell/show?

1978 Opel Senator


1978 Opel Reckord


1978 Commodore VB


1988 Opel Senator


1988 VN Commdoore


1998 Opel Omega



1998 VT Commodore

Can't right now, maybe at some stage.

HQ isn't clean sheet, we believe it was the Canadian Beaumont platform designed for approx 1969-70 release but canned. The Canadian cars became more and more different from their US based vehicle but the import tariffs were canned in 1965. After 1969 the Chevelle was sold in Canada as a Chevrolet. The HQ Statesman would have been the Beaumont sedan, the Monaro the coupe, the wagon as it is and the ute as a Beaumont version of an El Camino. GMH made them RHD, built the sedan on the coupe's wheelbase and made the Aussie engines, boxes and banjo fit. Later added the HG's roof to the ute and designed the tonner's quarters for the ute.
Just look how Yankee the HQ is: stud pattern, fuel filler, Salisbury rear axle. Very little parts on the car are marked HOLDEN. Even the upper rear control arms are located differently to Torana which seems odd if they were both designed here. Plus the fact the HQ is touted as being designed in record time after the original HQ was canned (a HK floor pan based car that was essentially an XA Falcon body on it). You don't design the whole HQ in 2 years - impossible! The HQ rails are a mirror of the US vehicles of the same size. Look closely in Norm Darwin's book of early HQ designs in the design studio, it isn't even at GMH!

[StephenSLR]

And an XD Falcon is a rip off of the Ford Granada

 

Not the best argument as it's still a Ford.

 

s

[Redzone]

Any info on EJ-HR origins?