hey i was wonderin wat sort of work is involved in fitting an injected vn or vs 5lt into my lx hatch is thier anyone on here that has done it before i just need to know some of the major parts of the conversion and just how difficult it realy is thanx
injected 5lt
Started by
_253_LX_
, Aug 12 2006 09:48 AM
35 replies to this topic
#2
_Herne_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 10:45 AM
I have recently (with much help from many friends) put a VN injected into my Torry.
Trust me when I say its a heck ot a lot of work.
Costing is around $3,500 to do the basic job properly.
Conversions include (and this is not all of them) obtaining a preferably new VN harness from GM-H and then having it modified to suit the Torana, I have a friend in Vic who can do this work and save you dollars.
Because the heads are different you need a new exhaust system made, I used factory VN extractors, not the highest performance option but it helped keep my costs down.
You wil need to add an EFI fuel pump and filter, map sensor, computer, spark module etc etc and if you do not have these they cost reasonable dollars to obtain. The speedo drive for EFI is Commodore and not Torana and this is an obstacle I have yet to overcome as it does not fit the Torana guage.
I could go on but you get the picture, if you think you really want EFI then go for it but think hard about what is involved. Others here will no doubt fill you in on some of the things I have skipped over.
Cheers
Herne
Trust me when I say its a heck ot a lot of work.
Costing is around $3,500 to do the basic job properly.
Conversions include (and this is not all of them) obtaining a preferably new VN harness from GM-H and then having it modified to suit the Torana, I have a friend in Vic who can do this work and save you dollars.
Because the heads are different you need a new exhaust system made, I used factory VN extractors, not the highest performance option but it helped keep my costs down.
You wil need to add an EFI fuel pump and filter, map sensor, computer, spark module etc etc and if you do not have these they cost reasonable dollars to obtain. The speedo drive for EFI is Commodore and not Torana and this is an obstacle I have yet to overcome as it does not fit the Torana guage.
I could go on but you get the picture, if you think you really want EFI then go for it but think hard about what is involved. Others here will no doubt fill you in on some of the things I have skipped over.
Cheers
Herne
#3
_pipjones_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 10:50 AM
Its really not that hard. Efi 5.0 litre is a very popular engine transplant for a lot of cars. You can get em cheap and they go ok. Wiring is the difficult part. You have to wire up all the correct sensors and that is not easy. My brother does efi v8 conversions on toyota hiaces and he can wire up anything and properly. 
#5
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 11:02 AM
Ive helped him with a few..Im not saying its a walk in the park, but its not that hard. Time consuming yes, but not hard.Will post a few pics of my brothers latest project. EFI 355 in a hiace commuter bus. Transport for my old man to cart his trees to the market..Yeah i know...WHY..WHY..WHY..Running a stroked 5 litre efi with turbo 700 and 4.3 diff..goes excellent...2600 revs 100 kays..and gets there quick..
#6
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 11:23 AM
Yeah OK pip, glad you clarified that for me, hard, well no you are right but time consuming I agree - it most certainly is, lots of little things crop up that you didnt realise needed changing etc.
As for costing, well I guess that depends on what you have to start with. Thats why I didnt pull it down and stroke it etc
Your brothers car sounds terrific, I bet it gets up and mumbo's
Cheers
Herne
As for costing, well I guess that depends on what you have to start with. Thats why I didnt pull it down and stroke it etc
Your brothers car sounds terrific, I bet it gets up and mumbo's
Cheers
Herne
#7
_possessed_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 02:14 PM
You will also need return feul lines and a surge tank,gear box cross member, There is a list of things that can pop up but it depends on how far you want to go and how much performance you are after.
#8
_keith1962_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 02:43 PM
Hey Herne
Did you have to change the sump & pick up pipe?????
cheers Keith
Did you have to change the sump & pick up pipe?????
cheers Keith
#9
_Herne_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 03:36 PM
Hi Keith
If you used a VN 304 block you would
I used a 253 red block so Torana pickup and sump is OK.
I can say this with all confidence, best not to use a winged sump as you get all sorts of complications. My exhaust man is still cursing my winged sump. I used VN factory headers I think if proper Torana extractors were used it would not be a drama. We knew we had to make what seemed like a simple mod to the passenger side extractor but the winged sump turned a simple mod into a nightmare.
Cheers
Herne
If you used a VN 304 block you would
I used a 253 red block so Torana pickup and sump is OK.
I can say this with all confidence, best not to use a winged sump as you get all sorts of complications. My exhaust man is still cursing my winged sump. I used VN factory headers I think if proper Torana extractors were used it would not be a drama. We knew we had to make what seemed like a simple mod to the passenger side extractor but the winged sump turned a simple mod into a nightmare.
Cheers
Herne
#10
_keith1962_
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 04:18 PM
Hi Herne
Gee mate i will have to come see your setup,thats if your not going
to the Muscle Car Masters.
cheers Keith
Gee mate i will have to come see your setup,thats if your not going
to the Muscle Car Masters.
cheers Keith
#11
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 04:39 PM
Hi Keith, pop on down anytime you like mate, most welcome.
Bad news today though the damn thing did not fire up, something electrical for sure and seemingly connected with the starter motor. Glad I am not booked into any events or car shows right now as I would be giving away money. Quite frankly its been a hell of a task and quite truthfully one I would not tackle again. I am very lucky to have had some mates (forum members included) give up their valuable time to help me.
Some might ask why put the VN gear on a 253 block? so here is part of the answer.
Firstly I purchased the 253 engine complete with VRSS heads, all the VN EFI manifolds etc and a new 5.0 litre cam. I considered a straight 304 block but didnt see one at 'my price'
Secondly I like the way the 253's rev out better than the 308's etc. So I am thinking nice quick EFI setup with VRSS heads and a motor that is designed to rev.
I am even thinking of getting the rev limiter altered from 6000 to 6500 when we play with the chip and settings.
Time will tell how well or badly this thing performs but the theory suggests it might be damned quick for a low budget conversion.
Cheers
Herne
Bad news today though the damn thing did not fire up, something electrical for sure and seemingly connected with the starter motor. Glad I am not booked into any events or car shows right now as I would be giving away money. Quite frankly its been a hell of a task and quite truthfully one I would not tackle again. I am very lucky to have had some mates (forum members included) give up their valuable time to help me.
Some might ask why put the VN gear on a 253 block? so here is part of the answer.
Firstly I purchased the 253 engine complete with VRSS heads, all the VN EFI manifolds etc and a new 5.0 litre cam. I considered a straight 304 block but didnt see one at 'my price'
Secondly I like the way the 253's rev out better than the 308's etc. So I am thinking nice quick EFI setup with VRSS heads and a motor that is designed to rev.
I am even thinking of getting the rev limiter altered from 6000 to 6500 when we play with the chip and settings.
Time will tell how well or badly this thing performs but the theory suggests it might be damned quick for a low budget conversion.
Cheers
Herne
Edited by Herne, 12 August 2006 - 04:42 PM.
#12
_Keithy's_UC_
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 06:22 AM
Herne, obviously the 253 block means you dont have to run cats or any of the efi related power robbing crap! How did you go fitting everything up to the 253? Someone mentioned to me not long ago that the valve to bore clearance is limited in the 253, what about a bored out 253?
Also, what are the differences in the 253 block to the 304 block apart from cubic difference? I will be doing the injection conversion in January, im just upgrading the brakes and fuel system prior to that. I can find a VP 304 with all parts included, and the motor's running well with only 140 000kms, but if the 253 adapts to the injected heads with no dramas i may consider the conversion with a nice bore out and stroke increase first...
The drop tank which is being measured up for my UC has an inbuilt swirl pot, so thats one thing covered, can you explain the surge tank as i've only heard of swirl pots before and assumed that surge tank was another name for it!! (New to performance fuel system terms)...
I've got more on my mind, but ill only bomb you with a bit at a time eh!!
Cheers
Keith (not the 1962 one, the 1985 one ha ha - no offence Keith)
Also, what are the differences in the 253 block to the 304 block apart from cubic difference? I will be doing the injection conversion in January, im just upgrading the brakes and fuel system prior to that. I can find a VP 304 with all parts included, and the motor's running well with only 140 000kms, but if the 253 adapts to the injected heads with no dramas i may consider the conversion with a nice bore out and stroke increase first...
The drop tank which is being measured up for my UC has an inbuilt swirl pot, so thats one thing covered, can you explain the surge tank as i've only heard of swirl pots before and assumed that surge tank was another name for it!! (New to performance fuel system terms)...
I've got more on my mind, but ill only bomb you with a bit at a time eh!!
Cheers
Keith (not the 1962 one, the 1985 one ha ha - no offence Keith)
#13
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 07:08 AM
will one of you guys do me a favor, as i doont have access to a head off a block ATM, get a head (must be large valve pre efi or VN type) and measure across the inlet and exhaust valve centreline (or the widest piont of the chamber). the distance i need is from the outer edges of the combestion chamber, especially if relieved to flow, and also the measurement of the valves themselves again from left outer to right outer across the centerline.
#14
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:44 AM
Too late for me to do that mate ^^^^^ if you had asked me last week it would have been easy. Now the exhaust is fitted I have no access sorry. Hope someone else has one to measure.
Cheers
Herne
Cheers
Herne
#15
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 10:03 AM
Hi Keithy
Everything fits to the 253 just fine the top end bolts straight on and of course if the 253 is out of a Torana and not a Commodore then the sump and pickup is naturally OK.
If its a Commodore 253 then sump and pickup needs to be changed back to Torana.
Also with the 253 you will need to use the EFI cam as a normal cam will not work at all.
Not too sure about the valve clearance problem as some here have reported it. I certainly do not have any valve clearance problems on my engine and I think its standard bore but we didn't measure it as the engine came complete and running.
We did check the pistons out etc through the sump and noticed they are new ACL's.
As stated above the biggest difference with the 253 and 304 block is different heads and EFI cam (speaking very generally here) 253/308 heads will NOT fit on a 304 in standard condition, not even sure if with a lot of work they could be modded to fit but then you have to ask why go through all that bother
Not sure what is meant by a surge tank, maybe it is another name for a swirl pot? I am using neither right now and as a test will run my car only with the EFI pump but if a swirl pot is found to be needed I will be fitting a secondary small pump instaed of a pot. Serves similar purpose, we may not be able to tell untill I give the car a hard time on the track. A friend has one he uses for road use only (not track at all) and he has no swirl pot or secondary pump fitted and experiences no problems.
I did need to change a few fuel lines around on the drop tank as the EFI runs differently.
Keep em coming mate, if I can answer I will.
Cheers
Herne
Everything fits to the 253 just fine the top end bolts straight on and of course if the 253 is out of a Torana and not a Commodore then the sump and pickup is naturally OK.
If its a Commodore 253 then sump and pickup needs to be changed back to Torana.
Also with the 253 you will need to use the EFI cam as a normal cam will not work at all.
Not too sure about the valve clearance problem as some here have reported it. I certainly do not have any valve clearance problems on my engine and I think its standard bore but we didn't measure it as the engine came complete and running.
We did check the pistons out etc through the sump and noticed they are new ACL's.
As stated above the biggest difference with the 253 and 304 block is different heads and EFI cam (speaking very generally here) 253/308 heads will NOT fit on a 304 in standard condition, not even sure if with a lot of work they could be modded to fit but then you have to ask why go through all that bother
Not sure what is meant by a surge tank, maybe it is another name for a swirl pot? I am using neither right now and as a test will run my car only with the EFI pump but if a swirl pot is found to be needed I will be fitting a secondary small pump instaed of a pot. Serves similar purpose, we may not be able to tell untill I give the car a hard time on the track. A friend has one he uses for road use only (not track at all) and he has no swirl pot or secondary pump fitted and experiences no problems.
I did need to change a few fuel lines around on the drop tank as the EFI runs differently.
Keep em coming mate, if I can answer I will.
Cheers
Herne
Edited by Herne, 13 August 2006 - 10:05 AM.
#16
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:22 PM
Herne you said "As stated above the biggest difference with the 253 and 304 block is different heads and EFI cam (speaking very generally here) 253/308 heads will NOT fit on a 304 in standard condition, not even sure if with a lot of work they could be modded to fit but then you have to ask why go through all that bother "
well i thought all heads regardless of block CID interchange, its the cam shaft that has to suite the heads.
well i thought all heads regardless of block CID interchange, its the cam shaft that has to suite the heads.
#17
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:35 PM
Are we talking the same language here? As far as I know 253/308 heads do not fit a 304 block but even if they do why on earth would you wnat to go backwards?
Cheers
Herne
Cheers
Herne
#18
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:37 PM
why would they not fit if they bolt straight up the other way around.
#19
_Herne_
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:41 PM
hey get off my case, I said as far as I know OK.
#20
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:44 PM
Herne, truly not on your case man, i respect you for your input to the forum and can see that you are a smart guy by the electric window thing you done, but i believe if you see the bigger picture you may save yourself some heart ache with the 253.
ill leave it alone now.
Cheers T.
ill leave it alone now.
Cheers T.
Edited by ALX76, 13 August 2006 - 09:45 PM.
#21
_keith1962_
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Posted 13 August 2006 - 09:46 PM
Keith (not the 1962 one, the 1985 one ha ha - no offence Keith)
None taken mate
Hey ALX76
Herne is right when he stated why would you want to go backwards
cheers Keith
None taken mate
Hey ALX76
Herne is right when he stated why would you want to go backwards
cheers Keith
#22
gtrboyy
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 12:13 AM
The vn heads will bolt up to the early 253-308 as long as you don't forget the cam,headers & manifold are different to the early engines lol.
Only problem I have been told is that if you run a decent size cam on a 253 is that you may have to clearance the top of the bore for valve clearance.This was on a high compression 253,b cast heads & big lift cam.
Other than that having small cubes,largish ports/valves it might be a bit sluggish down low due to the slow airspeed in the heads as vn-s heads seem to work better on bigger cube engines.
Still worth trying to see the results on a 253 though.
Only problem I have been told is that if you run a decent size cam on a 253 is that you may have to clearance the top of the bore for valve clearance.This was on a high compression 253,b cast heads & big lift cam.
Other than that having small cubes,largish ports/valves it might be a bit sluggish down low due to the slow airspeed in the heads as vn-s heads seem to work better on bigger cube engines.
Still worth trying to see the results on a 253 though.
#23
_Herne_
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 12:54 AM
Yeah spot on gtrboy
I know the VN heads bolt onto a 253/308 but I was under the impression the 253/308 heads might not bolt onto a VN 304 block ( I may well be wrong here and accept that). Then the question remains why would you want to do that anyway?
I am running a 5.0 cam in standard format and thats perhaps why there is no clearance problems.
Very correct about being a bit sluggish up to 60kph - thats what I was told and accepted. But after 60 K it apparantly starts to scream so I figure its worth a try.
I have a friend here who has a friend that is going to play with my computer, he seems to know what he is doing, he believes he can do something about the sluggishness. I am going to ask him to bump the rev limiter up also. Finally he can also give me more Kw but I am not sure if he alters the graph? on the computer or rechips it. Doesn't matter to me anyway. I am not a guru and dont profess to be.
As you say, all worth a try!
I explained earlier how I came to use an injected 253 it all came down to a dollar choice. Should this combination not work out then I already have the VRSS heads and VN EFI manifold/injectors/rails/throttle body etc etc and will find a 304 block. I am prepared to try and thats my point.
Again I say - spot on gtrboy.
Cheers
Herne
I know the VN heads bolt onto a 253/308 but I was under the impression the 253/308 heads might not bolt onto a VN 304 block ( I may well be wrong here and accept that). Then the question remains why would you want to do that anyway?
I am running a 5.0 cam in standard format and thats perhaps why there is no clearance problems.
Very correct about being a bit sluggish up to 60kph - thats what I was told and accepted. But after 60 K it apparantly starts to scream so I figure its worth a try.
I have a friend here who has a friend that is going to play with my computer, he seems to know what he is doing, he believes he can do something about the sluggishness. I am going to ask him to bump the rev limiter up also. Finally he can also give me more Kw but I am not sure if he alters the graph? on the computer or rechips it. Doesn't matter to me anyway. I am not a guru and dont profess to be.
As you say, all worth a try!
I explained earlier how I came to use an injected 253 it all came down to a dollar choice. Should this combination not work out then I already have the VRSS heads and VN EFI manifold/injectors/rails/throttle body etc etc and will find a 304 block. I am prepared to try and thats my point.
Again I say - spot on gtrboy.
Cheers
Herne
Edited by Herne, 14 August 2006 - 12:56 AM.
#24
gtrboyy
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:05 AM
Only other differences are for the five litre block like which cranks fit,castings on side of the block & that late blocks have an extra bolt hole on the block but all that stuff is for five litres anyway.
What program will you be using? (kalmaker or the eprom one that only changes parameters on the stock chips)
Anythings worth a try if your willing to give it a go!!
What program will you be using? (kalmaker or the eprom one that only changes parameters on the stock chips)
Anythings worth a try if your willing to give it a go!!
#25
_Keithy's_UC_
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Posted 14 August 2006 - 06:16 AM
Cheers for that herne!
If thats no drama for you, i dont believe i would have much (if any) touble also. Reason i ask is that a 253 would be more likely in need of a rebuild anyway wheras a 304 would have much less km's on it and be right for another 100 000km at least. But the benefit in rebuilding a motor is you know its condition, you know what's inside it, and you can choose what you want to do with it. Not only that, but no need for cat's, cheaper rego (small V8 block versus big V8 cubes), and availability.
Then again - it may be hard to locate a set of Injected heads, injection setup and wiring loom/computer. I have my eye on YET ANOTHER torana on saturday - an LX with 253 and Celica 5speed. My first LX (if i get it) not to mention my first V8... I've got a powerful 6 that mimicks the V8's at idle no worries, to get that real V8 burble would just be the icing on the cake.
Back to the injection... MMM... I was told you need a swirl pot (surge tank/whatever) to eliminate dry fuelling the motor on sharp corners. This is direct information from a very famous and knowledgeable torana owner/lover! You run your low pressure pump from the base of your fuel tank to the top of your swirl pot, from the bottom of ur swirl pot you have a high pressure fuel pump sending the go go juice to the fuel rails. Then again - if a standard system on your average V8 commodore has no need for a swirl pot, whats the difference with an average Torana owner? No harder on the right foot, not many differences apart from the vehicle.
How hard did you find it to locate the injection gear?
Cheers
Keithy (again the younger one - no offence keith)
If thats no drama for you, i dont believe i would have much (if any) touble also. Reason i ask is that a 253 would be more likely in need of a rebuild anyway wheras a 304 would have much less km's on it and be right for another 100 000km at least. But the benefit in rebuilding a motor is you know its condition, you know what's inside it, and you can choose what you want to do with it. Not only that, but no need for cat's, cheaper rego (small V8 block versus big V8 cubes), and availability.
Then again - it may be hard to locate a set of Injected heads, injection setup and wiring loom/computer. I have my eye on YET ANOTHER torana on saturday - an LX with 253 and Celica 5speed. My first LX (if i get it) not to mention my first V8... I've got a powerful 6 that mimicks the V8's at idle no worries, to get that real V8 burble would just be the icing on the cake.
Back to the injection... MMM... I was told you need a swirl pot (surge tank/whatever) to eliminate dry fuelling the motor on sharp corners. This is direct information from a very famous and knowledgeable torana owner/lover! You run your low pressure pump from the base of your fuel tank to the top of your swirl pot, from the bottom of ur swirl pot you have a high pressure fuel pump sending the go go juice to the fuel rails. Then again - if a standard system on your average V8 commodore has no need for a swirl pot, whats the difference with an average Torana owner? No harder on the right foot, not many differences apart from the vehicle.
How hard did you find it to locate the injection gear?
Cheers
Keithy (again the younger one - no offence keith)
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