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15 or 17in x 10 Hotwires HQ or Commodore stud pattern?


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#1 kimbo

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 01:45 AM

So just getting into my LX Hatchback resto project.  At this stage I am imagining 15x10 rears with 295s and 15x8 fronts with 245s.  Also considering 17s but leaning 15s as I can get old school looking TA's.   Anyhow, thinking about BorgWarner rear end with either dunny door or Skyline disks.  Any comments about stud patterns, diff widths and wheel offsets.  Since we are doing a full rotisserie restore I have the opportunity to modify the body etc to accommodate decent rubber.  Yes will be flared with panel cutouts.  My goal is to build a mean looking and sounding cruiser.  Actual performance is not a big deal.

 



#2 yel327

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 08:53 AM

Either will probably require Engineering as the tyre diameter will exceed original by a decent margin, but you’ll need that for the diff and brakes anyway. Heath Will probably be your best bet for what fits and where to make clearance.

#3 Heath

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 09:20 AM

I would recommend against Commodore pattern, despite its convenience for OEM parts, because if you or future owners want to use other cool wheels in the future (other than what you order for the car this time), Commodore pattern has a much weaker range. I would recommend Ford/Nissan/late Val/Toyota/Every car on earth (4.5" P.C.D.) or at least Chev/HQ (4.75" P.C.D.).

 

Video for the front end:

https://youtu.be/CiLIht5xu3k

 

Video on the rear end:

https://youtu.be/WhG7tmhTu1E

 

Sounds like you're on the right track, but you should also make actual performance more of a priority, also. Fast is no excuse for ugly. But hot looking and fast is better than just hot looking. Haha!



#4 Rockoz

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 09:48 AM

Rethink your choice of TAs.

Had lots of cars in my mates wrecking yard fitted with them.

The old school pattern were horrendous wet or dry.

The newer pattern were better, but once half worn were bad in the wet, but still half okay in the dry.

There were lots better tyres around in the day in the same sizes, albeit it more expensive that outperformed TAs by huge margins.

 

Cheers

 

Rob



#5 RoyalPlum76SS

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 01:56 PM

You are now at the perfect time to sort out the ultimate look you want from the car.
Buy the rim/tyre combo you like with the depth of dish you like etc, first.
With guards cut and flares fitted, position both wheels up in their wheel wells where you would like them to sit in regard to the flares. Now measure across from one wheel mounting face to the other. This is now the length of the diff you will need to get built.
For precision, its good to square the rims up by using a 'telescopic' axle that bolts between the 2 wheels. I made one from a couple of old axles (had to sacrifice one) some pipe and a couple of clamps. Some diff shops will loan you their workshop telescopic axle for this purpose.

For reference, you can fit 345/50/15's (approx 630 rolling dia.) under a flared hatch with a standard length diff (1440mm) and no chassis rail mods, so anything less will be a breeze.
But using std length diff measurements doesn't let you choose the exact depth of dish you like, as the rims are now dictated to by the diff length.
As for 295/15's they only seem to come in 50 series which, imho, at 675mm are way too tall aesthetically for the rear of a Torana. A better alternative (although bloody expensive) would be 285/40 series which have a rolling diameter of around 610mm.
If going 17's you could look at 235/40/17 up front and 275/35/17 rears for a pretty tough look.
Blue car in pic is not mine and obvs not a hatch but will give you an idea of what the above mentioned 17's would look like.
Red car is a mates hatch which had the 345's with std diff length.

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#6 Heath

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 02:36 PM

That red hatch has a non-standard flare shape on the rear BTW.

 

The blue car has standard flares.



#7 RoyalPlum76SS

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 03:07 PM

Thanks Heath, yeah Blue is standard L34 and (Some) A9X width.
The red from memory is using repliglass flares but quite possibly may also have been further modified by the panel shop.

#8 Heath

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 03:46 PM

I did a quick google and that particular car is apparently on the ad for them. lol. I guess that verifies my eyes.

https://repliglass.c...atch-rears-1-2/



#9 kimbo

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 06:16 PM

Thanks guys ...love the look.  What is the range of tires like for 17s?   Heath, I have seen your vids ...very awesome.  What stud pattern are you running?



#10 kimbo

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 06:18 PM

OK ...whats the trick to post photos LOL   Do they have to be hosted and pasted URL here ?



#11 kimbo

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 06:50 PM

I would recommend against Commodore pattern, despite its convenience for OEM parts, because if you or future owners want to use other cool wheels in the future (other than what you order for the car this time), Commodore pattern has a much weaker range. I would recommend Ford/Nissan/late Val/Toyota/Every car on earth (4.5" P.C.D.) or at least Chev/HQ (4.75" P.C.D.).

 

Video for the front end:

https://youtu.be/CiLIht5xu3k

 

Video on the rear end:

https://youtu.be/WhG7tmhTu1E

 

Sounds like you're on the right track, but you should also make actual performance more of a priority, also. Fast is no excuse for ugly. But hot looking and fast is better than just hot looking. Haha!

Thanks muchly Heath ...can I be a pain and get you to explain (4.75" P.C.D) ?   What rears are you running on your car ...offset and diff width ?   Cheers Kim



#12 yel327

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 07:09 PM

Google wheel PCD. It will explain all.

#13 Bruiser

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 07:40 PM

Even my Mazda express van has ford pattern.
Bastard fords and their fordy 12 slot wheel patterns pfffftpffffftpfft Pooh Pooh

#14 Heath

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Posted 07 August 2023 - 11:09 PM

P.C.D. is Pitch Circle Diameter... the diameter of the invisible circular line that the wheel studs are drilled around.
- 5 x 4.25" (or 5 x 108mm) is Torana & Early Holden is 5x4.25"
- 5 x 4.5" (or 5 x 114.3mm) is "Ford" but really Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mopar
- 5 x 4.75" (or 5 x 120.65mm) is Chevrolet and also full-sized Holden, so HQ-WB

Mine is the second one. It's by far the most common stud pattern in the universe, so you can buy bogan wheels, redneck wheels, and Jap & Euro wheels in it.

OK ...whats the trick to post photos LOL   Do they have to be hosted and pasted URL here ?

I host on imgur.com and paste the IMG code in my replies here.
 

Thanks guys ...love the look.  What is the range of tires like for 17s?   Heath, I have seen your vids ...very awesome.  What stud pattern are you running?

It's not great for 15"s and not that much better for 17"s honestly. I am running 275/40's and my car will fit 345's if I move the wheel centre in.

My rears are 17x12" -34 offset (currently with a 10mm spacer so more like a -44 offset because I am running so much stretch but this can be removed if I put wider tyres on). My diff is about 1420mm long between wheel mating surfaces.



#15 Ando

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 06:59 AM

I've had a few wheel/tyre combinations over years. The best advice would be to find what tyres are available first, then select the wheels. Tyre selection at the time of purchase is usually the limiting factor with our cars. Currently running 15x12 with 345/35R15 rear & front 15x91/2 with 285/40R15 tyres. That's pretty much the limit without rail mods plus the 140mm wider rear flares & 1440mm width diff.

 

Attached File  348382713_821877102983832_8752502865451208497_n.jpg   220.26K   9 downloads


Edited by Ando, 08 August 2023 - 07:01 AM.


#16 claysummers

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 07:00 AM

Pedantic point I know, but my factory workshop manuals list the pcd as 4.24", not 4.25". These are FB and EK manuals, but seems improbable that it would have been changed by 0.01". Anyone got a genuine manual for Torana they can check please?

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#17 yel327

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 08:19 AM

I think that has always been an error in GMH documents Clay. If it is real it'd be some tiny fraction like 4 31/128". Even then that would be 4.2422" - often fractions like this got rounded up by GMH to the next 100th of an inch so would still most likely be called 4.25" but it could also just be truncated to 4.24". To be lower than 4.24" it'd be 4 15/64" which is 4.2344".

 

You often see rounded up imperial figures creating issues especially with metric conversions. A good example is the published cc of a 308ci engine. GMH published it as 5047cc. Sometimes people call it 4044cc. It is neither, it is 5045cc. The errors come from rounding or truncation. 308 was 4" bore and 3 1/16" stroke or 3.0625" stroke. Various documents changed that to either 3.062" or 3.063" which is where I think both the 5044 and 5047 figures come from (with subsequent rounding or truncation of the LSD's in the metric numbers).



#18 claysummers

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 08:41 AM

Thanks Byron. Being a surveyor I am very aware of rounding and conversion issues. In my batchelor degree there was an entire subject devoted to the propagation of errors.

I would still love to see what was published in the later documentation. Surely GMH would have corrected such a fundamental error at some point. That is assuming that 4.24 is in error. Otherwise 4 1/4" was an approximation of the actual specification, then propagated as gospel.....

One for the doctor......

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#19 claysummers

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 08:58 AM

5045.185cc to be precise. My HP50g calculator works to 16 decimal places, but metric conversion is based on 1" being 25.4mm precisely. A rounding of 0.01mm in that conversion would result in 5051.146cc, just as an example of the propogation principle.

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#20 rexy

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 09:44 AM

No need to host photos anywhere.

Posting photos through external hosts sucks and if we have another Photobucket event all your pics disappear.

 

And who likes clicking on some random link potentially full of malware to see a pic if you do it that way either? i.e.no pic visible until you access a posted link in a post.

 

Just click the More Reply Options box bottom right.

 

Attached File  IMG_2810.jpeg   46.24K   5 downloads

 

Then click Choose File bottom left.

 

Attached File  IMG_2811.jpeg   119.55K   6 downloads

 

Pick something nice from your photo library 😊

 

Then click Attatch This File at bottom left followed by Add to Post at bottom right.

 

Attached File  IMG_2812.jpeg   51.72K   6 downloads

 

 

It is best to add the pics in as you go along as it doesnt seem to easily let you add them in to specific spots in your text if you try to do them all at the end of your post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#21 kimbo

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 03:59 PM

P.C.D. is Pitch Circle Diameter... the diameter of the invisible circular line that the wheel studs are drilled around.
- 5 x 4.25" (or 5 x 108mm) is Torana & Early Holden is 5x4.25"
- 5 x 4.5" (or 5 x 114.3mm) is "Ford" but really Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Mopar
- 5 x 4.75" (or 5 x 120.65mm) is Chevrolet and also full-sized Holden, so HQ-WB

Mine is the second one. It's by far the most common stud pattern in the universe, so you can buy bogan wheels, redneck wheels, and Jap & Euro wheels in it.

I host on imgur.com and paste the IMG code in my replies here.
 

It's not great for 15"s and not that much better for 17"s honestly. I am running 275/40's and my car will fit 345's if I move the wheel centre in.

My rears are 17x12" -34 offset (currently with a 10mm spacer so more like a -44 offset because I am running so much stretch but this can be removed if I put wider tyres on). My diff is about 1420mm long between wheel mating surfaces.

Amazing Heath ...you are awesome :-)



#22 yel327

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 04:47 PM

Thanks Byron. Being a surveyor I am very aware of rounding and conversion issues. In my batchelor degree there was an entire subject devoted to the propagation of errors.

I would still love to see what was published in the later documentation. Surely GMH would have corrected such a fundamental error at some point. That is assuming that 4.24 is in error. Otherwise 4 1/4" was an approximation of the actual specification, then propagated as gospel.....

One for the doctor......

Sent from my SM-G781B using Tapatalk

 

They didn't. It is right through HK-HG and into LH and LX as 4.24". I imagine UC will be the same. Not sure about big block Commodore - these do have metric studs though so not sure if they remeasured all that prior to publishing internal data. However, I do not have any Engineering Technical data for VH and it isn't in the Service Manual, nor is it in the Gregory's books.

 

I still cannot believe GMH would have used a 4 31/128" stud pattern. It has to be 4.25"



#23 claysummers

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 07:28 PM

Agreed. Pretty strange. Why wouldn’t they say 4 1/4”, and anyway why 4 1/4” anyway? Coming from 6 1/2” in FJ.


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#24 kimbo

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Posted 08 August 2023 - 07:42 PM

I've had a few wheel/tyre combinations over years. The best advice would be to find what tyres are available first, then select the wheels. Tyre selection at the time of purchase is usually the limiting factor with our cars. Currently running 15x12 with 345/35R15 rear & front 15x91/2 with 285/40R15 tyres. That's pretty much the limit without rail mods plus the 140mm wider rear flares & 1440mm width diff.

 

attachicon.gif 348382713_821877102983832_8752502865451208497_n.jpg

Awesome ...how do you find road comfort with those profiles?  Bearable?   What diff are you running?  I think from memory a R31 Borg Warner is 1440 wide so might be able to be used without cutdown?



#25 kimbo

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Posted 09 August 2023 - 01:30 AM

So I have another question in regard to stud patterns.  I get the point about the Ford PDC which I gather means I can use a R31 Borg Warner without redrilling as the pattern is the same?   So assuming that I want to say have Skyline brakes on the front what options are there for the front hubs?  Or am I just being pendantic for wanting matching brakes and stud patterns LOL






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