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ID tags- The dodgy ones


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#801 V-SLR5000-P

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:27 AM

The VIN and body tags are a disaster, Melbourne, Sydney or Adelaide. Take your pick. 

Is the Adelaide body number stamp genuine, its the key here? Both the original CAMS and Vicroads records will have the body number as the only means of identification. Need to do some serious due diligence before parting with $400,000



#802 S pack

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 09:50 AM

Also, should it be black, white or metallic? lol

#803 yel327

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 10:04 AM

No, stamping is wrong. PSN is HK era.

#804 HDTMONARO

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:09 PM

*
POPULAR

You guys are all absolutely spot on, I contacted Grays online several days ago and told them the car was not as portrayed.  I advised them of the 3 references to Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne and that the PSN refers to a late March 1968 HK.   An employee of Gray's who shall remain nameless as I don't want to get sued advised me that Grays online would put out a press release about the car advising that it is a re-body and giving bidders an opportunity to retract bids. 

 

In actual fact the car was re-bodied twice. The reason this vehicle has fake ID plates in the first place is because when Jim Parrett received the vehicle in 1970 it had no ID plates when delivered.  Funnily enough not many people are aware and I have the photos to prove it, that Bob Morris who leased the HDT Monaro in 1970 actually raced two HDT Monaro's, KKB 336 and KJK 345.  The second car was provided when he stacked the first.  In one sense, the Parrett's never knew which car they took possession of, as there was no ID plates.  How someone can know state this is Brock's car is pure fiction.  Also, the HDT Monaro's were all Melbourne cars.  I owned 57D for 20 years so know a little bit about them.

 

Anyone purchasing this car should contact any of many varied Monaro experts as they will blow the lid on this bucket of shit.  I wouldn't pay 50K for it, let alone 400K.  The original DNA of this car would be less than 5%.  When Parrett's took delivery of the car in 1970 it did not even have it's original Block.

 

End of Rant. 



#805 CI 0308

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 11:52 PM

WOW. I can see this sale ending up in a court of law.

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#806 Max's SS

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 06:35 AM

Sold $455,209 plus 7.5%



#807 hanra

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 06:45 AM

I hadn’t really been following the posts on here but happened to see the sale results on FB and felt I was asking a genuine question as I wasn’t sure it was the same car being discussed.

My original post and this post have both been deleted. So what’s the go?

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Edited by hanra, 26 September 2019 - 06:47 AM.


#808 Ice

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 10:58 AM

Dont listen to those dickheads that think they know everything on Facebook Brad
If you want the correct info there is only one place to go HERE
but you already know that

#809 hanra

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 11:47 AM

I agree. And I respect and believe the opinions of those voiced above. 



#810 Shiney005

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 05:41 PM

I have had posts pulled for similar stuff Brad.  Bugger 'em I say. The more people who know about the dodgy stuff going on the better.



#811 HDTMONARO

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 10:37 PM

The Plates on The "Brock" Monaro are as follows.

 

Attached File  Body I.D. plate.JPG   354.26K   7 downloads

 

MODEL HT13563M states the car is a Melbourne produced car.

 

TRIM 599 10X states Interior color Warrigal Black with standard black seats (10X)  All 4 of the HDT Monaros were a houndstooth interior, 10Y

 

PAINT 567-1192 should read 1192-1101 for Kashmir White, as this was the color for the 4 HDT cars. 

 

Attached File  Brock Monaro PSN plate.JPG   281.32K   3 downloads

 

81837TH5 refers to a  factory 350 HT produced at the Paigewood plant in Sydney.  The PSN refers to a late March 1968 HK Holden.

 

Attached File  Firewall Number.jpeg   302.76K   2 downloads

 

Lastly, this firewall photo clearly shows that the car is an Adelaide car.  The 4 HDT cars were all manufactured at Dandenong in Melbourne.

 

It can be clearly seen that car is a very rare bird indeed!! having been magically manufactured at no less than three production plants. 

 

The new owner will be extremely pleased when he deciphers the information on these plates.

 

 

 



#812 HDTMONARO

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 11:11 PM

The issue that surprises me the most is that all of the auction houses try and hide behind the "We were advised by the vendor that the car was legitimate" excuse. 

 

The Auction houses attract cars by stating they are the experts and will get you top dollar for your car.  They have a duty of care if they make brash statements such as "This car is original"  Any Moron with half a brain can access on the Internet basic data to decipher the I.D. plates on these cars in 5 minutes.  Why don't the auction houses do the same???

 

They would then identify in a heartbeat that the car is NQR.

 

For a statement such as "this car is the original Peter Brock Monaro" there should be provenance supplied by the vendor to prove beyond any form of doubt that the car is what it is being portrayed as. 

 

In this instance there is nothing, not one shred of evidence in any shape or form.

 

It will be very interesting to see where this ends up.................. 



#813 S pack

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Posted 27 September 2019 - 06:18 AM

The Plates on The "Brock" Monaro are as follows.

 

attachicon.gifBody I.D. plate.JPG

 

MODEL HT13563M states the car is a Melbourne produced car.

 

TRIM 599 10X states Exterior body colour Warrigal Black with standard black seats (10X)  All 4 of the HDT Monaros were a houndstooth interior, 10Y

TRIM should read 1192 - 10Y   Kashmir White exterior and Black Vinyl/Blk & Wh Houndstooth seats.

 

PAINT 567-1192 should read 568-11401 for Kashmir White, as this was the color for the 4 HDT cars. 

 

attachicon.gifBrock Monaro PSN plate.JPG

 

81837TH5 refers to a  factory 350 HT produced at the Paigewood plant in Sydney.  The PSN refers to a late March 1968 HK Holden.

 

attachicon.gifFirewall Number.jpeg

 

Lastly, this firewall photo clearly shows that the car is an Adelaide car.  The 4 HDT cars were all manufactured at Dandenong in Melbourne.

 

It can be clearly seen that car is a very rare bird indeed!! having been magically manufactured at no less than three production plants. 

 

The new owner will be extremely pleased when he deciphers the information on these plates.

^^^ A couple of minor corrections in case the new owner reads this^^^



#814 S pack

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Posted 27 September 2019 - 06:21 AM

The issue that surprises me the most is that all of the auction houses try and hide behind the "We were advised by the vendor that the car was legitimate" excuse. 

 

The Auction houses attract cars by stating they are the experts and will get you top dollar for your car.  They have a duty of care if they make brash statements such as "This car is original"  Any Moron with half a brain can access on the Internet basic data to decipher the I.D. plates on these cars in 5 minutes.  Why don't the auction houses do the same???

 

They would then identify in a heartbeat that the car is NQR.

 

For a statement such as "this car is the original Peter Brock Monaro" there should be provenance supplied by the vendor to prove beyond any form of doubt that the car is what it is being portrayed as. 

 

In this instance there is nothing, not one shred of evidence in any shape or form.

 

It will be very interesting to see where this ends up.................. 

Auction houses only care about one thing, maximising the Buyers Premium $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$



#815 yel327

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Posted 27 September 2019 - 06:42 AM

Dave is spot on, but there is more than that.

 

The model code for a Dandenong HT GTS350 is HT81837.  81837TR is the Pagewood code.

 

A Dandenong BODY number at this time takes the form 13565M, not HT13563M.

 

The PSN shown is actually H513563, which is from a Dandenong HK as Rob says.

 

Harry Firth muddled these 4 cars up well, I think  it is well known Bob Morris crashed the Des West car that had been promised to the Parretts but what they got was probably one of the other cars, or even one of the other cars re-bodied hence maybe why it is sporting an Elizabeth chassis number. I'll try and find what chassis number was on the car that the Parretts got from Harry.

 

The HT chassis number is I think close to what could have been on another Elizabeth body be it a wreck or a replacement shell, and in that era an Elizabeth body with that chassis number the PSN could be L135xxx. So it is possible it was rebodied with an Elizabeth body off another Monaro wearing HT13565A (replacement new shell) or a shell off a wreck with that chasiss number and a VIN plate reading 8xx37TL135xxx, and the VIN plate altered plus a Pagewood tag modified as we see it now. That chassis stamping isn't original though, but as Rob says it has been re-bodied twice. So who knows!

 

HDT had the 4 original Tonawanda GTS350 engines plus I think 3 from Flint supplied by GM for the Bathurst cars. But what engine ended up in which car and when is not known for certain plus Harry had I think Ian Tate build some engines (presumably from some of the original Tonawanda production engines) and one was buggered by GM on the dyno. We do know that the Woelders/Macrow car had the most powerful engine (and race rubber), then the West/Brock car had the next most powerful engine followed by the Bond/Roberts car.

 

It is entirely possible to end up with a car with an Elizabeth BODY plate and Elizabeth chassis number but with a Dandenong or Pagewood VIN plate - this was normal for HT vans, but very rare for anything else. This plate combination PLUS the fact they all match is impossible.


Edited by yel327, 27 September 2019 - 06:47 AM.


#816 S pack

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Posted 27 September 2019 - 06:58 AM

Dave is spot on, but there is more than that.

 

The model code for a Dandenong HT GTS350 is HT81837.  81837TR is the Pagewood code.

 

A Dandenong BODY number at this time takes the form 13565M, not HT13563M.

 

The PSN shown is actually H513563, which is from a Pagewood HK as Rob says.

^^^another minor correction^^^ :)



#817 yel327

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Posted 27 September 2019 - 07:32 AM

[email protected]! Funny how you think one thing and type another. Too late for me to edit it too.

Edited by yel327, 27 September 2019 - 07:33 AM.


#818 Shiney005

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Posted 28 September 2019 - 09:55 AM

Not even a mention of the auction result on Gray's webpage or their Facebook page.



#819 Statler

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 03:51 PM

LH sedan listed on FB. Comes with a set of SLR6 tags.

Chassis # 441702M

#820 MFM

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 04:25 PM

The way I see it, particularily in the last 5-10 years is that certain members of this forum who quite clearly possess a set  of unique authenticating skills within their realm, should publicly offer their services at a price to authenticate our cars. We are talking big money for our cars these days so why not make some money out of your knowledge because I'm guessing most of you knowledgeable blokes would be over 50 years of age and when you pass on, who do people turn to?. This forum should recruit a team of several members who can all be called upon at a price to travel around OZ and provide a certificate of authenticity signed by all members who critique each car. Be a good opportunity to see what's out there and an even better opportunity to ensure the integrity of our classic cars remain honest. 



#821 RallyRed

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Posted 10 November 2019 - 05:08 PM

not a bad idea..but they would need good insurance to cover their arses...particularly with the FB srars running interference

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#822 Shiney005

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Posted 11 November 2019 - 10:21 PM

At the end of the day, if anyone is looking at buying a Torana they need to start a thread in here with pictures of the chassis number and all three plates. If any of these are missing then there is nothing to authenticate in my opinion. If it is being sold as a GTR, XU1, L34, A9X, Brabham etc then forum members will ask for other pictures to positively I.D. the car in question.  I don't need to be paid to look at any L34 that is within 100 kays of my place, but as Col is alluding to, I am not about to start handing out certificates of authenticity out of fear of misrepresentation. There are some very good fakes being built lately.






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