My LJ Coupe which is about to make me cry...
Fresh engine, gearbox, everything....
I fitted the triple Webers last week, have driven about 100km (after running in cam and some easy driving) and gave it a bit of a squirt today.
It is running 11.2:1 comp (a bit high) on 98 fuel.
Today when I revved it to about 6,000 and gave a hard change into second, a few moments later it started making a fair bit of noise. It a clattering noise coming from either the engine or gearbox - I can't be sure.
On the freeway the noise came and went from time to time.
When I got home, I left the car for a while, then went and started it again and it's making this clattering noise at idle. It sounds like it's coming from the sump or gearbox.
When I rev the engine to about 2000 it seems to goes away. It's still firing on 6.
I pulled off the rocker cover and all the valves are fine and opening and closing as they should.
I can't be sure if it's the engine or gearbox/clutch. Have I spun a bearing or done some major damage to the engine?
Short of taking it to my engine builder (he's a fair way away)
Does anyone have a clue (based on my sketchy description) - or a box of tissues?
New engine - Knocking noise
Started by
_PeteXU1_
, Oct 09 2010 05:25 PM
38 replies to this topic
#2
_Drag lc_
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 06:38 PM
11.2:1 comp
When I got home, I left the car for a while, then went and started it again and it's making this clattering noise at idle. It sounds like it's coming from the sump or gearbox.
When I rev the engine to about 2000 it seems to goes away.
oh its pretty simple with those symtoms = loose flywheel.
#3
_judgelj_
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 06:46 PM
if it was a knock it wouldn't go away with more revs
#4
dattoman
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 06:58 PM
Yup
She's spat the flywheel off
Very common on Holden 6's with a big rev
Gearbox out time
She's spat the flywheel off
Very common on Holden 6's with a big rev
Gearbox out time
#5
greens nice
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 09:38 PM
crawl underneath, you should be able to see the end of the flywheel bolts if theyre still in there.
so can you still get it into gear? when you push your foot on the clutch does the noise go away?
so can you still get it into gear? when you push your foot on the clutch does the noise go away?
Edited by greens nice, 09 October 2010 - 09:39 PM.
#6
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 10:58 PM
crawl underneath, you should be able to see the end of the flywheel bolts if theyre still in there.
so can you still get it into gear? when you push your foot on the clutch does the noise go away?
Thanks for the quick replies guys. The sick feeling has just gone away a little - replaced with a good feeling of a few beers!
I will get under there tomorrow and have a good look.
I have fitted ARP bolts - What tension should these be done up to?
It was so long ago that I assembled it I can't remember if I used the factory tension or not
#7
dattoman
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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:15 PM
Doesn't matter what bolts you use
Or what torque you do them too (50 ft lb usually)
These things need dowels and lockwire and better balancers to reduce crank flex
Or what torque you do them too (50 ft lb usually)
These things need dowels and lockwire and better balancers to reduce crank flex
#8
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:47 AM
Hi
Spot on Datto, Now that's a good looking crank,
I always go with two dowels across from each other, I use Black cranks and all black 3.3 cranks have one already, as far as I'm aware, so I just add another.
Absolutely use a good quality balancer, I'm using Romac at the moment, no problems as yet.
I always use NOS Holden flywheel bolts, I have used ARP with limited success, the Holden bolts have much more "clamping" area on bolt head.
Just my opinion, though
Regards Simon
Spot on Datto, Now that's a good looking crank,
I always go with two dowels across from each other, I use Black cranks and all black 3.3 cranks have one already, as far as I'm aware, so I just add another.
Absolutely use a good quality balancer, I'm using Romac at the moment, no problems as yet.
I always use NOS Holden flywheel bolts, I have used ARP with limited success, the Holden bolts have much more "clamping" area on bolt head.
Just my opinion, though
Regards Simon
#9
GML-31
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:14 AM
did you use loctite on them?
#10
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:02 AM
Hi
Spot on Datto, Now that's a good looking crank,
I always go with two dowels across from each other, I use Black cranks and all black 3.3 cranks have one already, as far as I'm aware, so I just add another.
Absolutely use a good quality balancer, I'm using Romac at the moment, no problems as yet.
I always use NOS Holden flywheel bolts, I have used ARP with limited success, the Holden bolts have much more "clamping" area on bolt head.
Just my opinion, though
Regards Simon
With regards to the dowels - is this something I can do with the engine in the car? Obviously they need to be square and well fitted.
Will well tensioned holden bolts and loctite do the job?
The engine is built for about 260hp and will spend some time on the track. Max revs will be about 6800-7000.
The balancer is a powerbond (I think) the best one they had. Looks like I will need to take out the radiator and fit a romac balancer too...
The gearbox will have to come out tomorrow. I really appreciate all the help.
#11
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:06 AM
did you use loctite on them?
Hi,
I haven't ever used loctite on the bolts, the ARPs or the Holden ones,
Regards Simon
#12
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:13 AM
Hi
Spot on Datto, Now that's a good looking crank,
I always go with two dowels across from each other, I use Black cranks and all black 3.3 cranks have one already, as far as I'm aware, so I just add another.
Absolutely use a good quality balancer, I'm using Romac at the moment, no problems as yet.
I always use NOS Holden flywheel bolts, I have used ARP with limited success, the Holden bolts have much more "clamping" area on bolt head.
Just my opinion, though
Regards Simon
With regards to the dowels - is this something I can do with the engine in the car? Obviously they need to be square and well fitted.
Will well tensioned holden bolts and loctite do the job?
The engine is built for about 260hp and will spend some time on the track. Max revs will be about 6800-7000.
The balancer is a powerbond (I think) the best one they had. Looks like I will need to take out the radiator and fit a romac balancer too...
The gearbox will have to come out tomorrow. I really appreciate all the help.
Hi,
I don't know how successful it would be trying to fitt dowels with motor in the car, usually done with press with crank out of motor, some others might have a solution. I guess it could be done,
Probably best to consult your engine builder,
I haven't ever used loctite in over 30 years of playing with these things, but always willing to listen to other opinions.
On the appendix J motors and speedway, have tie wired in the past.
With the Romac balancer, you will strike clearance issues if running a steel engine fan, a small spacer would be required.
Hope all of this helps in some way
Regards Simon
Edited by debkar, 10 October 2010 - 10:14 AM.
#13
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:16 AM
Hi
What crank are you running, I meant to ask before?
Simon
What crank are you running, I meant to ask before?
Simon
#14
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:19 AM
Oh yes, and fit dowels before engine is balanced, another reason not to do it while engine in car
Regards Simon
Regards Simon
#15
_Drag lc_
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 11:18 AM
i know very little about them but if it this area has had no mods done on it id be asking some questions to the builder.The engine is built for about 260hp and will spend some time on the track. Max revs will be about 6800-7000
ussually the f/w frets on the crank and then then u really need to replace with another crank or have the face cleaned up but usaully it frets on the spigot on the outside of the crank so they (f/w and crank) are just junk when this happens.
Cheers
#16
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 01:13 PM
The bottom end is blue/black with a counterweight crank. Lots of weight has been removed and knifedged. For some reason I don't think there was a dowel as I fitted a Yella Terra 9904 Flywheel for a red engine.. Is this a problem?
I don't want to removed the engine - let along the crank from the engine.
Is wiring the bolts similar to the grub screws on weber carbs that have a hole drilled through the head, and wire going through and keeping them in place?
I will speak to my engine builder tomorrow, but in the meantime, my understanding for the best fix without removing the engine is;
Use Holden bolts to 50lbs (maybe a little more) with loctite and wiring the bolts as descibed above - if my understanding of this is correct.
I don't want to removed the engine - let along the crank from the engine.
Is wiring the bolts similar to the grub screws on weber carbs that have a hole drilled through the head, and wire going through and keeping them in place?
I will speak to my engine builder tomorrow, but in the meantime, my understanding for the best fix without removing the engine is;
Use Holden bolts to 50lbs (maybe a little more) with loctite and wiring the bolts as descibed above - if my understanding of this is correct.
#17
debkar
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 04:39 PM
The bottom end is blue/black with a counterweight crank. Lots of weight has been removed and knifedged. For some reason I don't think there was a dowel as I fitted a Yella Terra 9904 Flywheel for a red engine.. Is this a problem?
I don't want to removed the engine - let along the crank from the engine.
Is wiring the bolts similar to the grub screws on weber carbs that have a hole drilled through the head, and wire going through and keeping them in place?
I will speak to my engine builder tomorrow, but in the meantime, my understanding for the best fix without removing the engine is;
Use Holden bolts to 50lbs (maybe a little more) with loctite and wiring the bolts as descibed above - if my understanding of this is correct.
Hi Dan,
The flywheel sounds OK, not too light,
Yes, wiring is same as you described, hole through each bolt head, then taught wired together.
I haven't had a lot to do with knifedged cranks, or ones with weight removed, others may have. I prefer to leave all weight in place , but that's only my opinion.
If it was my engine I would remove strip and check, especially as per drag lc's post, concerned that if flywheel has come loose, what damage it has done moving around.
But if not, then Holden bolts NOS if you can get them, loctite as others suggest and torque up. Just take extreme care a loose flywheel at revs can do a lot of damage to car and driver.
Regards Simon
#18
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 05:33 PM
The bottom end is blue/black with a counterweight crank. Lots of weight has been removed and knifedged. For some reason I don't think there was a dowel as I fitted a Yella Terra 9904 Flywheel for a red engine.. Is this a problem?
I don't want to removed the engine - let along the crank from the engine.
Is wiring the bolts similar to the grub screws on weber carbs that have a hole drilled through the head, and wire going through and keeping them in place?
I will speak to my engine builder tomorrow, but in the meantime, my understanding for the best fix without removing the engine is;
Use Holden bolts to 50lbs (maybe a little more) with loctite and wiring the bolts as descibed above - if my understanding of this is correct.
Hi Dan,
The flywheel sounds OK, not too light,
Yes, wiring is same as you described, hole through each bolt head, then taught wired together.
I haven't had a lot to do with knifedged cranks, or ones with weight removed, others may have. I prefer to leave all weight in place , but that's only my opinion.
If it was my engine I would remove strip and check, especially as per drag lc's post, concerned that if flywheel has come loose, what damage it has done moving around.
But if not, then Holden bolts NOS if you can get them, loctite as others suggest and torque up. Just take extreme care a loose flywheel at revs can do a lot of damage to car and driver.
Regards Simon
So I couldn't wait till tomorrow... Pulled the box out today, and sure enough, the arp bolts were all undone by about 2 turns. I didn't use loctite.
I'm starting to question whether or not I even tightened them up to begin with, as I originally fitted standard bolts, torqued them, and then changed my mind and decided to fit ARP bolts. It was built a couple of years ago and I seem to remember wanting to check what tension to set the ARP bolts at.
The engine is lucky to have done over 5000 half a dozen times. It seems like too little work for a flywheel to come loose.
After removing the flywheel from the crank (still in the car) there are a couple minor marks on the flywheel and crank flange, and in the holes where the bolt go through from the thread on the bolts. The flywheel was a little more difficult to remove than usual, but cam off relatively easily. My feeling is that I will gently debur any surfaces (very gently) and refit.
As I know the guys at Yella Terra, I might drop in and see what they have to say tomorrow.
I really dont want to spend any more money (or time removing the engine) if I can help it.
What do people think?
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#19
_Drag lc_
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 07:21 PM
ussually the f/w frets on the crank and then then u really need to replace with another crank or have the face cleaned up but usaully it frets on the spigot on the outside of the crank so they (f/w and crank) are just junk when this happens.
well well what do we see here
yep shes junk but you dont need to listen to me mate................my feet wont be any where near your car.hehe
they look like very early gmh bolts not arp ones but someone will know.
on a side note from my experiance the bolts coming loose is a secondary problem you need to fix the primery prob first to eliminate this prob but your eng builder should know how to sort it for u.
#20
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 07:38 PM
The bolts are the ones I'm going to use (not the ARP items)
Is the flywheel seriously junk? Also, are you referring to the crank as well?
The "pitting" seems relatively minor and hasn't gouged into the metal - just rubbed on it.
I understand that it may be due to a secondary problem - but being a bit stupid - I can't remember if I torqued them up as mentioned.
Besides - what would a primary problem be?
Could too much compression and detonation cause this?
Is the flywheel seriously junk? Also, are you referring to the crank as well?
The "pitting" seems relatively minor and hasn't gouged into the metal - just rubbed on it.
I understand that it may be due to a secondary problem - but being a bit stupid - I can't remember if I torqued them up as mentioned.
Besides - what would a primary problem be?
Could too much compression and detonation cause this?
#21
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:09 PM
I guess I am looking for the easiest solution. Considering I have only driven the car 50km max, revved it hard a hand full of times (maybe to 6,000 2-3 times), is it likely I didn't torque to spec as I was able to remove all the bolts today by finger.
Can a flywheel come loose this easily?
Can a flywheel come loose this easily?
#22
xu1kid
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 08:20 PM
probably too many revs caused this as iv read in other posts correct me if im wrong, if a heap of weight has been taken off the crank then its not going to counterbalanced as good as it was standard, what rods and pistons are you running?
#23
rodomo
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 09:21 PM
If that is the only bit of fretting, I'd try it.
Holden bolts, no loctite and correct tension.
Take it easy and see what happens.
Seems to me that you are pretty switched on to what was happening.
Holden bolts, no loctite and correct tension.
Take it easy and see what happens.
Seems to me that you are pretty switched on to what was happening.
#24
AbsynthHatch
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:09 PM
What harm would loctite and lock wiring the bolts do?
Wouldn't this be cheap insurance to them not coming loose again?
Wouldn't this be cheap insurance to them not coming loose again?
#25
rodomo
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Posted 10 October 2010 - 10:16 PM
What harm would loctite do?
Loctite starts to go off as soon as pressure is applied.
Nipping up the bolts will start the process and can give a false reading by tensioning time.
If the flywheel starts to move, wired bolts wont hold it.
It will just stop the bolts from undoing, it wont stop the flywheel and then the bolts coming loose.
Edited by rodomo, 10 October 2010 - 10:19 PM.
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