63 replies to this topic

[Shiney005]

Now, this is NOT to get the "When is a Holden not a Holden" argument started again.

Not a mention of Holden in the ad anywhere. Were there any Holden badges on these cars? And what was the extra soundproofing?

 

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Edited by Shiney005, 18 June 2020 - 08:51 AM.

[Cook]

Just googled it Laurie and there is a pic of a 68 HK Brougham.  Has a Holden Badge incorporated into the front grille. Cheers Ron

[yel327]

Statesman was definitely not a Holden, not sure about Brougham. GMH went to great lengths to make sure Statesman was never seen as a Holden.

[Shiney005]

No Holden blurb in the Statesman ad, that's for sure.

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[RallyRed]

I guess they were attempting to differentiate into an "upper class" area for those who didn't think they could be a Holden driver?

 

Bit like the VF utes?....everybody calls them Commodore utes,........... but all the doco calls them "VF ute".

 

Only those with a Marketing degree and a pony tail really know..lol

[yel327]

They are not Commodore utes. Adventra, Crewman, Ute, Monaro aren’t either. In fact a Calais has never been a Commodore, ever since VK the terminology was always VK Calais and Commodore or vice versus.
Back to Statesman, I have memos where GMH we deliberately making it clear to ensure that they were not a Holden. I’ll go looking for Brougham stuff and see.

[Dr Terry]

The badge thing is one discussion, because let's face it even the last few Commodores don't even get a Commodore badge. Have a look at a VE/VF Berlina, Omega or Evoke or whatever, you won't find a Commodore badge anywhere.

 

Having said that, the HK-HG Brougham were still Holdens & most of the Brougham brochures still mentioned the Holden brand. The HQ-WB Statesmans (Statesmen ?) were never called a Holden. Even the parts catalogues of the day were titled "Holden & Statesman".

 

To answer the original poster's question, the HK Brougham had a large HOLDEN badge in the grille, same as Premiers. The HT Brougham had the word Holden included in the centre grille badge, above the Lion emblem. The HG, from memory had no Holden mention anywhere on the car.

 

Dr Terry

[Zook]

Now, this is NOT to get the "When is a Holden not a Holden" argument started again.

Too late. lol. I've always said if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's probably a duck. I'm happy now to acknowledge that my HSV Senator is Commodore based and, perhaps more importantly, a Holden because it carries the Lion badge.

[Ice]

I guess they were attempting to differentiate into an "upper class" area for those who didn't think they could be a Holden driver?
 
Bit like the VF utes?....everybody calls them Commodore utes,........... but all the doco calls them "VF ute".
 
Only those with a Marketing degree and a pony tail really know..lol

Not that old chestnut again Col
remember last time ✌️ brother

[yel327]

Commodore based or Commodore platform is pretty much true. A HQ Statesman shares the same platform as a Holden or is Holden based, just like a Sunbird is Torana based or shared the same platform. People often refer to Pontiac GTO as Monaro based or a Chevrolet SS as being Commodore based. And as Zook says HSV are normally Holden based and some are Commodore based too, others are based upon Statesman, Monaro or Holden ute or even Adventra or Crewman.

[RallyRed]

Marketing, nothin more.
Cut off a Statesman or Ute's arse...and they must be a Holden / Ute.

[claysummers]

Stato badge above the grille is a lion framed with garlands


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Covert]

Statesman compliance plate also shows holden symbol, surely that makes it a holden

Edited by Covert, 19 June 2020 - 12:27 AM.

[yel327]

Some of the apparent silly stuff is marketing Col, like the decision to buck convention and call the sports HQ sedan a Monaro GTS rather than SS. Monaro was the name for the Holden coupe, always was and became the logical choice for the revised Holden coupe in 2001.

 

But to simply call all derivatives of a platform "Commodore" for example is just people being ignorant (not meant derogatorily, just lack of understanding) of how vehicle manufacturing works. No-one calls a Camaro a Firebird - they are the same platform called F platform or F body. The F body is a derivative of the X body which is the ChevyII, Nova and other Pontiac, Buick and Oldsmobiles. I doubt anyone would call a '69 Firebird a Nova.

Same with a 2010 Camaro, never heard those called a Commodore or even a Holden, but they are based upon the Zeta platform just like a VE. And like many other cars like Chevrolet SS, CSV vehicles, Pontiac G8, Buick Park Lane, Chevrolet Caprice, Vauxhall VXR8 and HSV vehicles. A Pontiac G8 was built in the same facility as Commodores and looks like a duck but it isn't. Same with the Holden built Pontiac GTO.

 

The Statesman in HQ is a weird one. I've never really been sure of the fundamental reason why it was segregated away from the Holden brand. All that is clear is that was the intent. In reality it was the sedan version of the HQ wagon and ute when it was first designed for whatever purpose it was originally made for in North America. Then GMH built the HQ sedan out of the coupe and pushed the LWB sedan sideways into its own entity. Apart from Dandenong who put HOLDEN on the ADR plate of some Statesmans they assembled, the other Assembly plants deliberately left HOLDEN off the compliance plate.

Edited by yel327, 19 June 2020 - 09:17 AM.

[v6 torana]

The badge thing is one discussion, because let's face it even the last few Commodores don't even get a Commodore badge. Have a look at a VE/VF Berlina, Omega or Evoke or whatever, you won't find a Commodore badge anywhere.

 

Having said that, the HK-HG Brougham were still Holdens & most of the Brougham brochures still mentioned the Holden brand. The HQ-WB Statesmans (Statesmen ?) were never called a Holden. Even the parts catalogues of the day were titled "Holden & Statesman".

 

To answer the original poster's question, the HK Brougham had a large HOLDEN badge in the grille, same as Premiers. The HT Brougham had the word Holden included in the centre grille badge, above the Lion emblem. The HG, from memory had no Holden mention anywhere on the car.

 

Dr Terry

 

The two-millionth Holden (2MH), an HK Brougham (with Holden Badge on Grille), was produced at Dandenong on March 3rd 1969.

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[Redslur]

Still all Holdens to me :-)

[eyepeeler]

GMH went to great lengths to make sure Statesman was never seen as a Holden.

It's a shame it didn't really work, most people see it as a Holden Statesman. I tried once to say what your saying to someone and the look they gave me was of sheer bewilderment.

Like WTF are you talking about.

 

No-one calls a Camaro a Firebird - they are the same platform called F platform or F body. 

Agree, they don't, but it's because one is called a Chev Camaro and the other is a Pontiac Firebird.

That's the difference, different manufacturer. Chev and Pontiac.

 

But because the Statesman, Monaro, Kingwood, Brougham, Torana etc are made by Holden in the eyes of the general public that's all they ever will be.

 

I'm not saying your wrong by any means, but I don't say what your saying to many people as I get that WTF look all the time.

[yel327]

It's a shame it didn't really work, most people see it as a Holden Statesman. I tried once to say what your saying to someone and the look they gave me was of sheer bewilderment.

Like WTF are you talking about.

 

Agree, they don't, but it's because one is called a Chev Camaro and the other is a Pontiac Firebird.

That's the difference, different manufacturer. Chev and Pontiac.

 

But because the Statesman, Monaro, Kingwood, Brougham, Torana etc are made by Holden in the eyes of the general public that's all they ever will be.

 

I'm not saying your wrong by any means, but I don't say what your saying to many people as I get that WTF look all the time.

 

I've often wondered if it was tied up in the whole process of GM giving the HQ design to GMH to finish it. Perhaps associated with GMH's decision wanting the sedan to be a SWB (like the coupe) rather than LWB like the rest of the HQ models. GM may have forced them to sell it as Statesman by GM rather than as a Holden? Who knows, it is an indisputable fact that Statesman was never meant to be seen or regarded as Holden. Whether it worked or not 50 years later is really irrelevant, facts are what they are and get lost over time. I get those same looks too, normally from ignorant (often know it all) Ford people. 

 

The Camaro and Firebird thing is really not that much different to Holden Monaro vs HSV coupe vs Pontiac GTO or Commodore/Lexcen, Apollo/Camry etc. It is shared architecture, just in Australia we never had the local market for larger variation on shared platforms. HD to HX/Z were sent overseas and assembled using foreign drivelines as various things such as Chevrolet, Isuzu, Mazda etc. None of them are Holden or Statesman.

 

From memory the first time GMH changed the Holden name from a car line to a Company based thing was with Sunbird and Commodore. Both of these get referred to as Holden Sunbird and Holden Commodore in various literature whereas prior to that it was very clear that a Holden was the full size GMH car, Torana was the intermediate size GMH car and Gemini was the small GMH car with Statesman off to the side as a different product just like the previous luxury offering (Chevrolet with Pontiac above it again). As Dr Terry often says, the arrival of Torana on the scene (or at least its name change from Vauxhall Viva to GMH Torana) started to muddy the waters. Then Statesman made it more confusing. And badges started to appear on things like Bedford that said "Powered by Holden". Today's generation have enough trouble understanding yesterday let alone why a Holden ute isn't a Commodore! 

[eyepeeler]

I've often wondered if it was tied up in the whole process of GM giving the HQ design to GMH to finish it.

As far as general perception goes, me personally I think its tied up in one sentence, if you saw someone's car and asked them "where did you buy it".

The answer will always be I bought it a such and such(dealer) Holden, aka Kevin Dennis Holden in this picture from 1970's. 

GM is there is the sign but the Lion and Holden are the dominant feature. GM is the parent company and Holden is the Manufacturer.

So it was Kevin Dennis Holden not Kevin Dennis GMH or Kevin Dennis GM.

So the car you had became a Holden such and such from the day it left the showroom, even in the 70's.

The public saw it a Holden Torana or a Holden Monaro or a Holden Statesman etc.

 

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[yel327]

Most of those dealers sold Holdens though, and had their dealership name when all they sold were Holdens. Some of them sold Pontiac, Buick, Vauxhall and Chevrolet too though remember. As I said the Torana started the real confusion though.

[Shiney005]

Now, this is NOT to get the "When is a Holden not a Holden" argument started again.

For what it's worth, I'm with Byron on this one.  It doesn't matter what the public (and even myself) call them. To be factually correct, it is what GMH called them.

[snuff1966]

The reason some dealers sold Vauxhall, Chevs  ect and some did'nt was that when the Holden was released GMH set up a lot of new dealer for the Holden and kept they're dealers for the other GM products seperate. When the Holden took off and was selling like hot cakes the other dealers complained and were given Holden franchises as well, that's why in even small towns there was often 2 Holden dealerships, I have 2 HK Kingswoods that were  sold new in my town and they're from 2 different dealerships. When I was a kid my town, with about 8000 people had 2 Holden dealers, Ford, Chrysler, Mazda, Toyota and Mercedes dealers. All that is left  is a single Mitsubishi dealership now.

[yel327]

^^And to be fair Laurie a GMH seemed to trip themselves up at various stages too. The 70’s was a pretty tumultuous and dithering time for GMH.

Edited by yel327, 19 June 2020 - 05:46 PM.

[yel327]

The reason some dealers sold Vauxhall, Chevs ect and some did'nt was that when the Holden was released GMH set up a lot of new dealer for the Holden and kept they're dealers for the other GM products seperate. When the Holden took off and was selling like hot cakes the other dealers complained and were given Holden franchises as well, that's why in even small towns there was often 2 Holden dealerships, I have 2 HK Kingswoods that were sold new in my town and they're from 2 different dealerships. When I was a kid my town, with about 8000 people had 2 Holden dealers, Ford, Chrysler, Mazda, Toyota and Mercedes dealers. All that is left is a single Mitsubishi dealership now.

Yes. My point was is a Pontiac or Vauxhall a Holden simply because it was purchased from a dealer called Joe Blow Holden?

[snuff1966]

Yes. My point was is a Pontiac or Vauxhall a Holden simply because it was purchased from a dealer called Joe Blow Holden?

No