63 replies to this topic

[RallyRed]

agreecwith everything above ( i.e. the last 20 or so? posts).
You can make of it what you will..there are many sides.
Just wonder where HSV, Statesman etc people go to buy spares, get warranty work etc done?.

[Glacier73]

“Statesman compliance plate also shows holden symbol, surely that makes it a holden”

Gotta agree with Covert.
So what about shared models between manufacturers - Early Ford Laser and Mazda 323, Holden Commodore and Toyota Lexen, etc, etc?
Simple isn’t it? whatever the manufacturer is on the compliance plate.

[yel327]

Nope. There is only one correct answer, a Statesman was never meant to be a Holden. GMH were clear on that in all internal literature, and they continued the identical theme with Calais where it was deliberately separated from The rest of Commodore when Calais was released. The only thing that is not known without doubt is why they did it. Calais was always far closer related to Commodore than Statesman was to Holden. But the fact remains. I’ve tried to find a reason/cause for it but only ever found the effect and implementation.

The Manufacturer on the compliance plate of any GMH vehicle prior to the late 80’s is GMH. GMH made lots of vehicles including Holden. They also made fridges, Statesmans, Toranas, Buick, Pontiac, Vauxhall, Bedford, Chevrolet, Isuzu, Mazda plus more.

Edited by yel327, 19 June 2020 - 11:05 PM.

[Indy Orange]

Because Statesman and Calias were deliberately separated from Kingswood and Commodore because they were the upmarket version .Who would want to call it a Kingswood Statesman or a Commodore Calias.

[yel327]

No one would call it a Kingswood Statesman, the equivalent in VK is Executive Calais. Kingswood is a luxury level like Premier or in Torana terms SL. You are mixing up luxury levels with the car line, if GMH had called the car a Holden Statesman the lower lux level is Holden Kingswood.

[Dr Terry]

“Statesman compliance plate also shows holden symbol, surely that makes it a holden”
 

Not so. The Lion & stone emblem pre-dates the Holden car brand by decades. From memory it was designed in 1928 as the emblem for Holden Motor Body Builders a few years before the merger with GM to become GM-H.

 

The Lion emblem was seen on ID plates etc. on anything from Chevs, Pontiacs, Vauxhalls to Bedfords etc.

 

I think GM-H was trying to promote the Statesman range as a separate upmarket brand in the same way that Toyota has created Lexus & similar to the Chev, Buick, Cadillac thing in the USA. Ford created the Edsel brand to fit in between the cheaper Ford range & Mercury, we all know how that ended.

 

Mazda tried it with the Eunos, Nissan tried it with Infiniti, Honda also have the Acura brand in the USA.

 

Holden was always perceived to be the "working man's car" so an upmarket brand seemed a good sales strategy. They just didn't carry it thru.

 

Look at Hyundai, they have an expensive model called a Genesis which sells in the $60,000 bracket. You often hear the comment "who would pay $60,000 for a Hyundai ?", because people perceive a Hyundai as being a cheap Getz or i30 small car. If you look closely at a Genesis you won't find a Hyundai badge (or even an H emblem) anywhere on the car. If you look at adverts for the Genesis, it is promoted as the Genesis,with no Hyundai mentioned. Is this the same strategy ?

 

Dr Terry

[yel327]

Out of interest, does anyone have a photo of a compliance plate image off an Elizabeth/Woodville LH or LX?

[rodomo]

Not so.

So if it's not a Holden, who made it? The plot thickens...………...

[yel327]

GMH. Same mob who made lots of cars, trucks and other stuff that aren’t Holdens.

[rodomo]

So that would be General Motors who?

[Zook]

This is the bit I don't get. If GM Holden made it, by your own admission, then how is it not a Holden?

Edited by Zook, 20 June 2020 - 10:49 PM.

[Zook]

So here's an example of stuff made by GMH that wasn't a Holden. De Havilland designed and built the Gipsy Major aero engine fitted to, inter alia, Tiger Moths. GMH started building them in Australia to meet demand, I presume, under licence from DH. Is that how Statesmans, Calais, Toranas and all the other Holdens you're claiming weren't Holdens were built? Your argument that a vehicle made by Holden is not a Holden is nonsense.

[Ice]

I haven't put my 2 cents worth because last time i lost some forum member friends because of this topic ( yes I know Col I should )
but im with Byron with this one
all know is that my VF Holden ute is not a Commodore and thats a fact if anybody can prove me wrong knock you're socks off
no Commodore i know of has a ute back they didn't make any afaik

Anyway how about we just get on with it just enjoying driving our cars
because one day you wont be driving frOck all

[yel327]

As I said, facts are facts. People can believe whatever they want. In the end it’s not my claim or theory or whatever, it is a simple fact and it is pure nonsense to dispute it. But again people can choose to do that if they like, I’ll just not be told I’m wrong when I am absolutely not.
I guess we better start calling Fanta by the name Coca-Cola as that word is in the name of the Company who make it. So I guess that means Bedfords are Holdens, they were manufactured marketed and sold by GMH too. Commodores were called Holden Commodore, but the other derivatives were called Holden Ute, Holden Monaro etc. Not sure how the company named Calais in the 80’s but it definitely deliberately separated from Commodore, or how they treated Statesman after GMH ceased to exist as an entity that is whether it was Holden Statesman or the same as HQ etc. They did refer to the later Caprice as Holden Caprice I think. The 70’s and 80’s Statesman were never called or meant to be seen as a Holden Statesman, they were Statesman by General Motors.

Edited by yel327, 21 June 2020 - 07:58 AM.

[S pack]

I haven't put my 2 cents worth because last time i lost some forum member friends because of this topic ( yes I know Col I should )
but im with Byron with this one
all know is that my VF Holden ute is not a Commodore and thats a fact if anybody can prove me wrong knock you're socks off
no Commodore i know of has a ute back they didn't make any afaik

Anyway how about we just get on with it just enjoying driving our cars
because one day you wont be driving frOck all

Agree with most of what you say Gene. My VZ Cab & Chassis, like your VF Ute, is a Holden Commercial Vehicle, it isn't a Commodore, wasn't called a Commodore and there is no mention of the Commodore name in any of the marketing literature.

Granted it shares some body panels and mechanical components etc with another model of vehicle made by Holden's Ltd that they named a Commodore but that does not make any models in the commercial vehicle range a Commodore.

 

I believe way back in the days of the VN & VP Commodore sedans and wagons the Utility variant also had Commodore on them but as they are VN's and VP's no one gives a crap.

Edited by S pack, 21 June 2020 - 08:36 AM.

[Dr Terry]

So if it's not a Holden, who made it? The plot thickens...………...

So you're saying that a 1935 Chev is a Holden simply based on the fact that GMH built it ?

 

Seriously though, I think what blurs the picture is that while the Utes, Monaros, Statesmans & Caprices are based on a Commodore platform, this doesn't actually make them Commodores

 

Dr Terry

[rodomo]

I'm talking only about the Brougham Doc. I'm aware of Holden history, even that they once made F@4RDS

[RallyRed]

Agree with Yel & the Dr and a few others...the point is well made, and factual.

 

The difficulty is the general man in the street, day to day punter has a view that is not technically correct, and that "lazy" view is a little contaigous.

 

All good

 

p.s. I still love Gene...lol

[Ice]

Yeah my bad Dave forgot about the the VN VP Comoddore ute they were that good they dropped the name ✌️

[Ice]

Agree with Yel & the Dr and a few others...the point is well made, and factual.
 
The difficulty is the general man in the street, day to day punter has a view that is not technically correct, and that "lazy" view is a little contaigous.
 
All good
 
p.s. I still love Gene...lol

Ooh i feel all warm inside now Col

[yel327]

No VN ute. Never understood why some VG to VS ute have a Commodore badge. They were not marketed as such afaik and literature never calls them a Commodore, especially VG. The base ute was only a Holden ute I believe, it was only the S that had the Commodore name on it. VU onwards definitely no Commodore anything.

[Ice]

No VN ute. Never understood why some VG to VS ute have a Commodore badge. They were not marketed as such afaik and literature never calls them a Commodore, especially VG. The base ute was only a Holden ute I believe, it was only the S that had the Commodore name on it. VU onwards definitely no Commodore anything.

Correct again good sir

I got on the piss last night to early to start posting

[Shiney005]

So what about shared models between manufacturers - Early Ford Laser and Mazda 323, Holden Commodore and Toyota Lexen, etc, etc?
Simple isn’t it? whatever the manufacturer is on the compliance plate.

1996 Toyota Lexen. (VS Commodore for all you plebs)

 IMG_1543.JPG   227.84K   1 downloads  IMG_1544.JPG   78.57K   0 downloads

[S pack]

No VN ute. Never understood why some VG to VS ute have a Commodore badge. They were not marketed as such afaik and literature never calls them a Commodore, especially VG. The base ute was only a Holden ute I believe, it was only the S that had the Commodore name on it. VU onwards definitely no Commodore anything.

Oh OK my bad. I thought there were VN and VP utes then VG and VS went up to Series III as VU ute didn't appear until VX production.

[RallyRed]

geeze Shiney...does that compliance plate tell us that a Compliance plate can tell us absolutely nothing about the manufacturer?