hey guys trying to get this hi 6 fired up but its not sparking. everything is hooked up as diagram insturucts but still wont spark. where do i look first??
any help much appreciated!
urgent: no spark with hi 6
Started by
_uglybob_
, Oct 14 2006 01:43 PM
26 replies to this topic
#2
_Rob 5000_
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 01:57 PM
look for simple things first. Battery is charged, good connections on terminals, take dissy cap off and make sure rotor button is turning when cranking motor. Any chance you didnt have no1 on TDC when you put dizzy in?
#3
_uglybob_
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 02:05 PM
yeh got the multi meter out the battery has 12 volt and all the connections are good and extensions have been solderd. rotor button is turning whilst cranking and it was definantly on tdc when dizzy went in..
tested for power everywhere and seems good but just no spark. put the screw driver in no.1 lead to see but got nothing..
what do ya rekon??
tested for power everywhere and seems good but just no spark. put the screw driver in no.1 lead to see but got nothing..
what do ya rekon??
#4
rodomo
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 02:29 PM
Electronic? Points?
#5
_uglybob_
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 03:19 PM
tried with both electronic and points...
#6
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 06:45 PM
Disconnect the + wire at the coil, run a feed wire straight from the battery + to the coil + and try it but don't run it too long. Which coil are you using?
#7
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 06:50 PM
ok will that not kill the coil?? the crane lx92 coil
#8
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 09:23 PM
Shouldn't kill the coil, but just test this method and turn it off again. If your car runs like this, it means the problem is between the battery, through the inition switch and out to the coil. If it doesn't run the problem is between the coil and the dizzy. Does the coil have a voltage written on it?
#9
TerrA LX
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Posted 14 October 2006 - 09:27 PM
doesn't this system have built in fault codes like a holden computer?
what are the codes telling you?
what are the codes telling you?
Edited by ALX76, 14 October 2006 - 09:28 PM.
#10
_uglybob_
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 06:54 PM
well i was going to try it with power straight to the coil like you say but the fault codes your refering to alx is how many times the little light on the box flashes over a period of time. the instructions say that if the light dosnt come on when key is on position that there is a ground fault and the light comes on. so the next step is that its spozd to flash while cranking if not then you have no triger signal. there is no flashing so fault codes say i have a signal problem... but wired up with the old coil and points dizzy it runs fine.
maybe i got a lemon?
maybe i got a lemon?
#11
_v8slrtorana_
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 07:24 PM
Crane HI-6 have a low volatge protection. Your motor maybe turning over, however, your HI-6 may switch off protecting itself.
Even though you think your battery is ok at 12 volts, it may not have 12volts when you have the starter engaged.
Connect some jumper leads to a spare battery and try that.
Even though you think your battery is ok at 12 volts, it may not have 12volts when you have the starter engaged.
Connect some jumper leads to a spare battery and try that.
#12
_uglybob_
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 08:33 PM
ok then but i know for certain that my battery has 12v because my multi meter can not lie.
#13
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:13 PM
Uglybob, have no experience at all with your HI6 unit and dont even know what it does, possibly you want to give it the big hi5 and kiss it good bye?
You say you wired it up(the motor) with the old points dizzy and coil and it ran fine.....meaning that you didnt use the hi6 unit at all to run the motor?
This would mean that you are still running the resistor wire from the ignition switch?
Perhaps this is the reason you are getting the low voltage signal from your module, although the resistor wire should be bypassed when cranking.
The battery is always going to drop below 12V (10.5V is typical) when you are cranking the starter(unless you have a couple of truck batteries hooked up in parallel) if there is enough battery to turn the motor over there has to be enough to work your device......or it is a useless device for starting a car.
You say you wired it up(the motor) with the old points dizzy and coil and it ran fine.....meaning that you didnt use the hi6 unit at all to run the motor?
This would mean that you are still running the resistor wire from the ignition switch?
Perhaps this is the reason you are getting the low voltage signal from your module, although the resistor wire should be bypassed when cranking.
The battery is always going to drop below 12V (10.5V is typical) when you are cranking the starter(unless you have a couple of truck batteries hooked up in parallel) if there is enough battery to turn the motor over there has to be enough to work your device......or it is a useless device for starting a car.
#14
_v8slrtorana_
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:25 PM
Are you using the magnetic pickup wires (Black & Red) or the points pickup wire?
You can use a points pickup wire on electronic dizzy.
Another point to check
First disconnet your dizzy.
With the ignition on, cross the white wire to earth really quickly, if the coil fires, your points pickup is ok.
With the ignition on, cross the red and black mag wires really quickly, if the coil fires, your mag pickup is ok.
So, not doubting your multimeter is telling lies, but if you want, i can give you a multimeter that does ! Sorry no help there.
I have a HI-6 in my SLR. Due to the age of the battery, i only get one shot at starting it before the HI-6 cuts out on low voltage protection. Motos turns over, but no fire. Which is ok at the moment for me, because the car aint registered.
You can use a points pickup wire on electronic dizzy.
Another point to check
First disconnet your dizzy.
With the ignition on, cross the white wire to earth really quickly, if the coil fires, your points pickup is ok.
With the ignition on, cross the red and black mag wires really quickly, if the coil fires, your mag pickup is ok.
So, not doubting your multimeter is telling lies, but if you want, i can give you a multimeter that does ! Sorry no help there.
I have a HI-6 in my SLR. Due to the age of the battery, i only get one shot at starting it before the HI-6 cuts out on low voltage protection. Motos turns over, but no fire. Which is ok at the moment for me, because the car aint registered.
#15
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 09:58 PM
devilsadvocateUglybob, have no experience at all with your HI6 unit and dont even know what it does, possibly you want to give it the big hi5 and kiss it good bye?
You say you wired it up(the motor) with the old points dizzy and coil and it ran fine.....meaning that you didnt use the hi6 unit at all to run the motor?
This would mean that you are still running the resistor wire from the ignition switch?
Perhaps this is the reason you are getting the low voltage signal from your module, although the resistor wire should be bypassed when cranking.
The battery is always going to drop below 12V (10.5V is typical) when you are cranking the starter(unless you have a couple of truck batteries hooked up in parallel) if there is enough battery to turn the motor over there has to be enough to work your device......or it is a useless device for starting a car.
A HI-6 is solid state CDI. Capactive Discharge Ignition.
Dont quote me here, i cant find exact details
As a general rule CDI's will fire twice (or more) per cyliner stroke below 2500rpm. Above this rpm, it sparks only once, however the spark duration is longer.
Being capactive discharge, the coil will receive approx 500 volts at around 500milliamps instead of 12v, or incase of a coil wire with a resister wire, less.
The secondary coil voltage on a torana is around 1,5000v, with a CDI its around 50,000v, you should here these coils work, its scarey !
The crane HI-6 is connected directly to the battery, to get maximum voltage, the old coil wire, aka holden yellow wire, becomes a trigger wire for the CDI.
Crane CDI's start to miss fire at below 10volts, so the low voltage cut out is less then that, i cant remember, but i say around 9volt.
As far as being a usless device for starting your car, time to chuck the battery if this is the case. Good new healthy battery, you wont have this problem.
#16
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Posted 15 October 2006 - 10:40 PM
Thanks for the info ^, dont agree that a device that cuts out ignition power at ~9V is a a good device for having in a car starting circuit. True a battery that only puts out 9V at cranking is on the way out and will need replacing eventually......but one of my ucs has survived the last year with a battery that does exactly that. Even a healthy battery can drop below 9V after some failed starting attempts.
The ignition shouldnt be the weak link in the chain, that is just bad design........ one can find themselves in many circumstances where the battery may drop to 9V when cranking, ie partially drained or in extreme cold etc. A points ign can easily supply a decent spark at 6-7V(thats what they are designed for) and get the car started(Ive watched it happen on my uc as it finally kicked over as the starter does an extra half turn), as to can a stock electronic ignition.
Obviously there must be advantages in these types of systems, but its a significant compromise in respect to starting.
The ignition shouldnt be the weak link in the chain, that is just bad design........ one can find themselves in many circumstances where the battery may drop to 9V when cranking, ie partially drained or in extreme cold etc. A points ign can easily supply a decent spark at 6-7V(thats what they are designed for) and get the car started(Ive watched it happen on my uc as it finally kicked over as the starter does an extra half turn), as to can a stock electronic ignition.
Obviously there must be advantages in these types of systems, but its a significant compromise in respect to starting.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 15 October 2006 - 10:45 PM.
#17
antelopeslr5000
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:19 AM
CDI produces a shorter spark duration, not longer.As a general rule CDI's will fire twice (or more) per cyliner stroke below 2500rpm. Above this rpm, it sparks only once, however the spark duration is longer.
#18
_uglybob_
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:01 PM
well i took the coil lead off and tested the battery while cranking and its puting out 10.5 and im sure that i read 9.5 was the minimum inm the instructions. one question i have is what is the cylinder select about?? it said in a 6 to ground it and in an 8 to connect to positive 12v. it was grounded by the way.
as for giving it a hi 5 and stuff i couldnt bring myself to doing it after forking out for it, plus i want the big spark.
i think i might palm it off to the performance shop and just cop the massive bill at the end of the day. its just annoying because its spozd to be easy!
as for giving it a hi 5 and stuff i couldnt bring myself to doing it after forking out for it, plus i want the big spark.
i think i might palm it off to the performance shop and just cop the massive bill at the end of the day. its just annoying because its spozd to be easy!
#19
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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:34 PM
Just doing my homework, taken from HI-6 manual, lots of digging !!CDI produces a shorter spark duration, not longer.As a general rule CDI's will fire twice (or more) per cyliner stroke below 2500rpm. Above this rpm, it sparks only once, however the spark duration is longer.
Under low RPM cranking conditions, the HI-6 generates up to 12 sparks.
This assures quick starting even under the most adverse conditions.
At idle and cruise, the number of sparks fired is adjusted to maintain a total spark duration of approximately 20 degrees (crankshaft), assuring smooth idle, improved throttle response, and eliminating the lean surge characteristic of some late model emission controlled vehicles.
Above 3,000 RPM, the HI-6 generates a single powerful spark with many times the spark gap current of most competitive systems.
So i was fairly close to the mark going on my memory before !
antelopeslr5000 Yes i would agree it produces shorter spark duration but, only per fire in multi spark mode. Total spark duration is longer, indvidual spark is shorter.
uglybob I see your asking about cylinder select. Im sure its got something to do with the smooth operation of the rev limiter and correct opperation of tacho.
Yes in a 6, ground the wire, in a 8, tape it up, in a 4 splice to 12v.
Oh, and i said before your mag input wire are black and red, well they could be violet and green, depending on what model HI-6 you have.
Did you try crossing the trigger wires on the unit to check for spark?
Your battery, should be more than fine at 10.5v
#20
_uglybob_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 10:11 AM
ok so i couldnt work it out and it was driving me mad so i took it to a performance shop in perth and their verdict was that the hi 6 itself was missing the trigger wire. i only just thought about it but theres no wire in the diagram thats spozd to be coming out of the box called the trigger wire. so they said to call them up and send it to them and they are spozd to send another one to the shop and i take the car back againand hav them install tha hi 6 a second time. no biggy as this has been my experience with everything i hav done with the car. the problem was that they found the hi 6 had a fault but had already droped in the electronic dizzy so they just hooked that up to the lx92 coil that i had allready mounted for them and put the points dizzy in a box with the faulty hi 6 unit. i think that if it were my shop i would hav called the customer and said the unit was faulty before proceeding any further. any how the car shat itself on the way home from the shop that day and i had to tow it home. i was ropeable, i dont think i should hav to do that after paying good dollars but apparantly it drove alright wen he was driving it and it drove allright wen i drove it down the road from the shop so its tough tities now. whats your opinion guys i just wanted to hear what some body else thinks.
also one more question is the vaccum advance line on the dizzy, do most people ger rid of that?
cheers
ben
(sorry had to sook to someone!)
also one more question is the vaccum advance line on the dizzy, do most people ger rid of that?
cheers
ben
(sorry had to sook to someone!)
#21
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 10:37 AM
Not sure of your purchase facts here. Did you purchase it from a shop, take it back to them and now they are sending it away for repair and/or waiting for another one?
It comes under item not fit for the purpose of which it was sold.
If something is faulty at purchase, which it appears to be here, then by consumer law you have the rights to insist on an immediate replacement or instant refund(you dont have to accept a credit either). This afaik, also applies if they can replace it, you might have purchased something, go to use it for the first time......find it doesnt work and have to purchase one from somewhere else because the original store is not open....you were in another town etc........why should the customer be left holding 2 of the same item if it was faulty from the factory. It comes under item not fit for the purpose of which it was sold.
You should not have to be put in the position where you are waiting for the item to be repaired or another one sent to the shop. Whether the shop doesnt have another one or is unwilling to break up a new one to recover the faulty part is not an argument for not refunding........retailers know this can happen and need to have this built into their margins. If it keeps happening with particular stock, then its up to them whether they continue to trade that line, its their obligation to stand behind what they sell in their store, not throw their hands up and say its your problem if something goes wrong.
I can see it is a little tricky here if you have already partly installed some of it...but still if its unusable because of one part........it should be returned and refunded.
It comes under item not fit for the purpose of which it was sold.
If something is faulty at purchase, which it appears to be here, then by consumer law you have the rights to insist on an immediate replacement or instant refund(you dont have to accept a credit either). This afaik, also applies if they can replace it, you might have purchased something, go to use it for the first time......find it doesnt work and have to purchase one from somewhere else because the original store is not open....you were in another town etc........why should the customer be left holding 2 of the same item if it was faulty from the factory. It comes under item not fit for the purpose of which it was sold.
You should not have to be put in the position where you are waiting for the item to be repaired or another one sent to the shop. Whether the shop doesnt have another one or is unwilling to break up a new one to recover the faulty part is not an argument for not refunding........retailers know this can happen and need to have this built into their margins. If it keeps happening with particular stock, then its up to them whether they continue to trade that line, its their obligation to stand behind what they sell in their store, not throw their hands up and say its your problem if something goes wrong.
I can see it is a little tricky here if you have already partly installed some of it...but still if its unusable because of one part........it should be returned and refunded.
#22
_v8slrtorana_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 05:22 PM
Agree with devilsadvocate
I work in the service industry for one of the largest whitegoods manufactures in Aus.
When doing out of warranty work, we offer 3 months labour warrany in the case of a faulty part or workmanship.
You should be covered if the fault you now have is caused by the shop which you put your car into.
You wont get free labour when you go back to install the HI-6, neither crane or your workshop has to foot the bill here, sorry.
I agree, they should of called you to check with the go ahead of more work.
I work in the service industry for one of the largest whitegoods manufactures in Aus.
When doing out of warranty work, we offer 3 months labour warrany in the case of a faulty part or workmanship.
You should be covered if the fault you now have is caused by the shop which you put your car into.
You wont get free labour when you go back to install the HI-6, neither crane or your workshop has to foot the bill here, sorry.
I agree, they should of called you to check with the go ahead of more work.
#23
_uglybob_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 07:02 PM
ok well the plot thinkens fellas. iv been around to see a couple of people to get their opinion and they all said i dont think this guy knows what hes doin as they all pointed out that the white lead that is there is no doubt the trigger wire and also that the lx92 coil should not hav been hooked up without the hi 6 unit!!
i went to see the shop today and i think the guy that was there who was by himself was a little worried that i wsa going to go ape shit in front of all his customers, he just sed the guys that were working on it will be here on monday so come back and talk to them then so i left.
can anyone add anything to the trigger wire bit, is anyone elses trigger wire not pair with another red wire from the box?? if that makes sence
i went to see the shop today and i think the guy that was there who was by himself was a little worried that i wsa going to go ape shit in front of all his customers, he just sed the guys that were working on it will be here on monday so come back and talk to them then so i left.
can anyone add anything to the trigger wire bit, is anyone elses trigger wire not pair with another red wire from the box?? if that makes sence
#24
_v8slrtorana_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 08:31 PM
Using the LX92 on a stock electronic ignition might overload a stock ignition, long time result is premuture failure.
DO NOT PAIR THE WHITE trigger wire with any red wires form the box. It will not fire.
If using the mag pickup, tape the white trigger wire up, if using the white trigger wire, tape the mag pickup wires seperatly.
If that makes sense.
What kind of electronic dissy are you using?
DO NOT PAIR THE WHITE trigger wire with any red wires form the box. It will not fire.
If using the mag pickup, tape the white trigger wire up, if using the white trigger wire, tape the mag pickup wires seperatly.
If that makes sense.
What kind of electronic dissy are you using?
#25
_uglybob_
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Posted 21 October 2006 - 08:51 PM
whats the mag pick up fella? well if they have fried it then they will be fixing it! its just the standard electronic holden 6 dizzy.
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