Not a torana but my girl friends Toyota rav4 1994 model which was in a accident and has on going problems.
Just seeing if anyone here can put me in the right direction as I am running out of ideas and am getting very frustrated also.
Basically the car was struck from behind which was a great hit which was 90-95% absorbed through the towbar resulting in buckling up the floor pan, jamming the tailgate and bending rear structural members (no chassis � monocock frame)
The car was later �fixed� which involved realigning the rear end and banging down the boot pan etc. ever since the acco there has been a noticeable �knock� or �clunk� from the rear end upon acceleration. This got progressively worse over time till the point where when I heard it and took it back to the panel beater to sus it out. They denied it and after I pushed it took it back and they couldn�t work it out, so it went to a suspension shop, diff shop, mechanic, Toyota and a RACQ inspection and not one of them could find the problem. What was identified was that a number of the spot welds that had been broken free � most obviously from the acco. These were where the structural members join together. Either these were a result of the acco or have had happened over time due to something still not being right with the rear end. (wasn�t fix correctly and the rear end is flexing) These were repaired by the insurance (of course not their fault but fixed it from the goodness of their heart�..) but the noise is still there but has quieted down a tad.
I have my suspicions on the diff centre. Now, these rear diffs are bolted up to the floor pan and suspended via rubber mounts. These mounts were torn and were later replaced (by myself) and costs reimbursed by the insurer but again, from the goodness of their heart. After these were replaced, the noise had quietend a little, but has gotten significantly worse to now.
The best way to describe the noise would be to imagine somebody swinging a sledge hammer into the rear of the car (this is with only with a little bit of throttle at low revs)
What I have noticed is that the noise is more noticeable in a higher gear at about 50km/hr (approx 2000rpm). From a standstill in 1st, I can barely get the noise to appear and that is with large amount for throttle and dropping the clutch. In 4th, I simply need to be rolling and then just apply the throttle and WACK you hear it. This has led me to believe that the noise maybe from the diff � maybe backlash. Although the amount of backlash noticeable when twisting the tailshaft is normal. (noise is definitely from the diff area)
The insurance company is basically washing their hands on this one saying that it is up to me to identify the problem, and then establish that it is accident related or not.
Toyota could not find the problem but have confirmed that this is NOT normal for these cars and especially with only 160K kms on the clock. They and many others are saying it is more than likely it is from the acco because of the big impact going by the extent of the work done to the rear of the car, but aren�t willing to put that in writing as they are not 100% sure what the noise is.
I am very pissed off with the insurance them as at the time of the initial assessment, they never took the car for a road test nor did the repairers. It should have been picked up then, and if they were having the same problems as we are finding now (with no one able to identify it) it is part of their assessment to 100% identify all possible damage to the car. They basically left it up to my girl friend to pick up on this. Her being unaware with cars and all, didn�t think much of this and didn�t bother to pursue it until it got worse and showed me.
What im after is a few things�..
1 � any idea what the noise is? Or where it is coming from?
2 � any idea why its more noticeable in a higher gear?
3 � how I should approach the insurance company to get this resolved? I don�t belive I should be doing their work and take the car from shop to shop to try and diagnose the noise.
I really appreciate any responses on this as I am out of ideas, and me being the little guy is being pushed around by the powerfull insurance company.
Again, I appreciate those who have read through this as it quite a long post!
Thanks
Toyota Rav4 - loud 'clunk' from rear end
Started by
_holdon_
, Feb 22 2007 12:23 PM
12 replies to this topic
#2
_MYLJ_
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 12:39 PM
you can take it up with the ombudsman, here is the link to the Victorian one.........
http://www.ombudsman... Links~&2=~&3=~
I assume other states have similar.
http://www.ombudsman... Links~&2=~&3=~
I assume other states have similar.
#3
rodomo
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 03:58 PM
Loose crown wheel bolts?
Loose pinion nut?
Loose pinion nut?
#4
Tiny
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 04:09 PM
Wow man.. Crappy situation.
I had a good read, and the bottom line is this:
The car was hit.. and REPAIRED UNDER INSURANCE.
The should be in exactly the same condition after repairs as it was pre-crash. Obviously its not.
Either
A) They missed some damage
B ) A Repair has become faulty
C) Something else has occured "coincidentally" to cause the noise.
I'd say that C is the most UN-likely, and either A or B means it's their problem.
I;d be taking it back to whatever repairer your insurance company had the work done though, and having them fix and fix the fault at no cost to you.
You pay your premiums for this exact situation ( accident i mean), and the car obviously has not been fixed correctly, or some damage missed. Theyre liable either way.
I'd try and talk to them in the way that this is too inconvenient for you (not qualified??) to track/fix/diagnose, and that it is their reponsibility that the car be repaired correctly after the accident. "could you please organise for your repair shop to take the vehicle and find and repair it".
If they dont want to play ball.. I'd look at going to the ombudsman.
Best of luck!
I had a good read, and the bottom line is this:
The car was hit.. and REPAIRED UNDER INSURANCE.
The should be in exactly the same condition after repairs as it was pre-crash. Obviously its not.
Either
A) They missed some damage
B ) A Repair has become faulty
C) Something else has occured "coincidentally" to cause the noise.
I'd say that C is the most UN-likely, and either A or B means it's their problem.
I;d be taking it back to whatever repairer your insurance company had the work done though, and having them fix and fix the fault at no cost to you.
You pay your premiums for this exact situation ( accident i mean), and the car obviously has not been fixed correctly, or some damage missed. Theyre liable either way.
I'd try and talk to them in the way that this is too inconvenient for you (not qualified??) to track/fix/diagnose, and that it is their reponsibility that the car be repaired correctly after the accident. "could you please organise for your repair shop to take the vehicle and find and repair it".
If they dont want to play ball.. I'd look at going to the ombudsman.
Best of luck!
#5
_DocDamage_
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 05:43 PM
I had a similar problem tracking down a clunk after a front end bingle. It only happened at certain speeds so the last thing I expected it to be was a misaligned bonnet. It banged against the guard at 40-60k's & sounded like the frontend was trying to fall out. I guess wind effect either caused it at or limited it to that speed.
Could the rear door be misaligned or missing rubbers? Jam a piece of carpet or similar in it to check.
Could the rear door be misaligned or missing rubbers? Jam a piece of carpet or similar in it to check.
#6
to fly
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 06:44 PM
Im pretty sure the Ombudsman is only related to Goverment Dept issues, I say this because I have used them when a public hospital misdiagnosed my broken elbow (fell off my dirtbike), then sent me a whopping bill. I only got an apology and the bill waived, but I won!!! Im sure they will direct you to a small claims tribunal after you can prove the fault. I know it sucks but good luck.
#7
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 07:35 PM
I know this will sound silly but I'm guessing it will be something that small and silly, I'd be checking the spare wheel and carrier thats bolted to the tailgate to make sure its bolted on properly or something like the tailgate check-strap or hinges, check that the cars tools are fitted in the proper spot and not loose in the well knocking against the body.
I know this isnt going to sound logical but if all of those different shops failed to locate ANY mechanical defect then there is a good chance that there isnt one, Mechanical problems/noises don't dissappear they only get worse or fail thats their nature.
I'd start if you havent already by getting a copy of the quote of the repairs that were carried out so you can go through and make sure what's been listed as being repaired has been, Spot welds can let go (Yes even factory ones, I've seen BA's in particular with spot welds in the rear letting go) and RAV4's are a pretty basic rear end panel wise so you should be able to see 95% of the rear floor/crossmember spot welds to see if they have let go. If this is the case you will get noises all the time over bumps etc.
Almost all Insurance companies offer lifetime guarantees to the repairs of vehicles so keep at them if you dont get a satisfactory result and dont be afraid to go higher up the food chain if you have to.
I deal with these issues on a regular basis including rectifications of repairs done by other shops, surely your insurance company can direct you to another of their recommended repairers to have another look at it.
I know it sounds crazy but I'd bet it turns out to be something really silly that will end up putting tears in your eyes, the amount of times I've had cars at suspension specialists with "knocking" in rear suspensions only to find out the spare wheel isnt bolted down tight enough in the spare wheel well is embarrassing, and you never get a panelbeater to admit they f***ed up even after they swear black and blue that they checked everything...lol
Keep your chin up mate you'll get there
I know this isnt going to sound logical but if all of those different shops failed to locate ANY mechanical defect then there is a good chance that there isnt one, Mechanical problems/noises don't dissappear they only get worse or fail thats their nature.
I'd start if you havent already by getting a copy of the quote of the repairs that were carried out so you can go through and make sure what's been listed as being repaired has been, Spot welds can let go (Yes even factory ones, I've seen BA's in particular with spot welds in the rear letting go) and RAV4's are a pretty basic rear end panel wise so you should be able to see 95% of the rear floor/crossmember spot welds to see if they have let go. If this is the case you will get noises all the time over bumps etc.
Almost all Insurance companies offer lifetime guarantees to the repairs of vehicles so keep at them if you dont get a satisfactory result and dont be afraid to go higher up the food chain if you have to.
I deal with these issues on a regular basis including rectifications of repairs done by other shops, surely your insurance company can direct you to another of their recommended repairers to have another look at it.
I know it sounds crazy but I'd bet it turns out to be something really silly that will end up putting tears in your eyes, the amount of times I've had cars at suspension specialists with "knocking" in rear suspensions only to find out the spare wheel isnt bolted down tight enough in the spare wheel well is embarrassing, and you never get a panelbeater to admit they f***ed up even after they swear black and blue that they checked everything...lol
Keep your chin up mate you'll get there
#8
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 08:08 PM
I'll comment on the clunk. When we had to get our gearbox repair in out RAV4 one thing the Mechanic asked me was when getting on and off the accelerator did we hear a clunk. I never had noticed but I did give it a try and sure enough there was a clunk.
I asked what it was and he said he had noticed it on another RAV4 he serviced and what I was told was ti is the flexing of the rubber mount of the diff. HE was toying with the idea of producing a urethane bush instead but I don't know what ever happened with it. But from what I understand it is common issue. More annoying than anything.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
I asked what it was and he said he had noticed it on another RAV4 he serviced and what I was told was ti is the flexing of the rubber mount of the diff. HE was toying with the idea of producing a urethane bush instead but I don't know what ever happened with it. But from what I understand it is common issue. More annoying than anything.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
#9
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 09:42 PM
In the link I provided there is info on what Ombudsman do, including insurance companies, infact the link show a list of the different ombudsman we have in Victoria, there is more than just one ombudsmanIm pretty sure the Ombudsman is only related to Goverment Dept issues
http://www.ombudsman... Links~&2=~&3=~
#10
rodomo
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Posted 22 February 2007 - 11:43 PM
If the car was stationary at the time of impact this can occur. I bought a wreck from Fowles that had had a rear shunt and a tooth was broken off 1st gear.Loose crown wheel bolts?
Loose pinion nut?
If you move the crownwheel on the carrier with impact and again the the flange on the pinion, this can effectively make the retaining nuts/bolts loose.
#11
_holdon_
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Posted 23 February 2007 - 08:17 AM
Just like to say thanks for all the input guys!! I need all the comments I can get.
At this stage with the insurance company, we are just going to write up a filthy letter and flick that off addressed to their disputes resolutions department. From there they are obliged to respond to out situation with an answer. From there if we're still not happy we are off to the ombudsman.
Tiny: I�m thinking that same as what you have said. And I believe it�s that they have missed something. And I think I have a strong point there to push as all these inspections have brought up other things wrong with the car such as the cracks/loose spot welds, rear wheel alignment out, clamp marks still on the car (from the re-alignment jog) and previously � the split rubbers of the diff pinion mounts. Also something else to note � after the repairs the exhaust and tailgate were rattling like crazy and went back 3 times to get fixed��.I really thinks it�s all a matter of an incompetent repair company. (Not our choice, but their RECOMMENDED repairer!). Ill be sure to mention those points you raised as we are paying for a service that we are not getting.
DocDamage: I had the suspicions that it was something to do with the tailgate. At first this too rattled and used to jar/jam when parked on a slight angle. So again � this went back to the repairer to get sorted out. They re-aligned the tailgate but didn�t make a difference. It wasn�t until the car went to Toyota and they had a fiddle around with it that it got better. I have tried driving the car with the tailgate open to see if the noise is still there � and yes it is. If you sit in the back, the noise is definitely coming from the diff area.
To fly: I have already called the ombudsman to just get an idea was required for us to get them to pursue the matter. I believe it�s a public service funded by all Australian insurers.
Pete: I know what you mean, and before all this got blown up, I did all the basic little searches for the noise. Pulled things off, tied things down � nothing seamed to make a difference. I think I will though get the insurance company to get a different repair company to sort it out as I believe this one is incompetent.
LHEFI: This is what TOYOTA also told me (that the brackets are weak and normal to split and make noise) but these are new, and at the time of installation didn�t get rid of the noise. Toyota commented that they have new have never had a rav come in with a noise this loud and that it must be something else and more than likely from the acco as it is not normal for this car. I had tried wiring the centre tight to the brackets to limit any play � also puts bits of plastic between the rubber mounts to also reduce play. This didn�t make a difference.
Rodomo: Yes the car was stationary. But this noise is evident regardless of what gear you are in. would you mind explaining further what you are talking about regarding the crownwheel on the carrier? - what retaining nuts/bolts are you talking about?
Again � thanks for all the replies and for spending the time reading through this!!!
At this stage with the insurance company, we are just going to write up a filthy letter and flick that off addressed to their disputes resolutions department. From there they are obliged to respond to out situation with an answer. From there if we're still not happy we are off to the ombudsman.
Tiny: I�m thinking that same as what you have said. And I believe it�s that they have missed something. And I think I have a strong point there to push as all these inspections have brought up other things wrong with the car such as the cracks/loose spot welds, rear wheel alignment out, clamp marks still on the car (from the re-alignment jog) and previously � the split rubbers of the diff pinion mounts. Also something else to note � after the repairs the exhaust and tailgate were rattling like crazy and went back 3 times to get fixed��.I really thinks it�s all a matter of an incompetent repair company. (Not our choice, but their RECOMMENDED repairer!). Ill be sure to mention those points you raised as we are paying for a service that we are not getting.
DocDamage: I had the suspicions that it was something to do with the tailgate. At first this too rattled and used to jar/jam when parked on a slight angle. So again � this went back to the repairer to get sorted out. They re-aligned the tailgate but didn�t make a difference. It wasn�t until the car went to Toyota and they had a fiddle around with it that it got better. I have tried driving the car with the tailgate open to see if the noise is still there � and yes it is. If you sit in the back, the noise is definitely coming from the diff area.
To fly: I have already called the ombudsman to just get an idea was required for us to get them to pursue the matter. I believe it�s a public service funded by all Australian insurers.
Pete: I know what you mean, and before all this got blown up, I did all the basic little searches for the noise. Pulled things off, tied things down � nothing seamed to make a difference. I think I will though get the insurance company to get a different repair company to sort it out as I believe this one is incompetent.
LHEFI: This is what TOYOTA also told me (that the brackets are weak and normal to split and make noise) but these are new, and at the time of installation didn�t get rid of the noise. Toyota commented that they have new have never had a rav come in with a noise this loud and that it must be something else and more than likely from the acco as it is not normal for this car. I had tried wiring the centre tight to the brackets to limit any play � also puts bits of plastic between the rubber mounts to also reduce play. This didn�t make a difference.
Rodomo: Yes the car was stationary. But this noise is evident regardless of what gear you are in. would you mind explaining further what you are talking about regarding the crownwheel on the carrier? - what retaining nuts/bolts are you talking about?
Again � thanks for all the replies and for spending the time reading through this!!!
#12
ToRunYa
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Posted 23 February 2007 - 12:56 PM
it's that damn camel jumping on the roof!
#13
Tiny
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Posted 23 February 2007 - 06:52 PM
LOL Em... that could answer it!
Holdon: I think your doing the right thing mate, Youve been pretty darm accomodating, but by putting the problems in writing yoru forcing them to act. If it's not a suitable outcome then youve laid the grounds to take it further.
I hate "Reccomended repairers"... I pay extra on my insurance to get choice of repairer ( not that that always matters! hehe!).
Good luck.
Holdon: I think your doing the right thing mate, Youve been pretty darm accomodating, but by putting the problems in writing yoru forcing them to act. If it's not a suitable outcome then youve laid the grounds to take it further.
I hate "Reccomended repairers"... I pay extra on my insurance to get choice of repairer ( not that that always matters! hehe!).
Good luck.
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