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Temp Guage (308)

Started by _Loki_ , Jan 24 2006 11:19 PM

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32 replies to this topic

#1 _Loki_

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:19 PM

Hey guys,

I know there is a thread on this further down but it's a slightly different problem.

I'm using temp sender of, VDO: 320003. (blue ring)

The problem is, I don't believe my temp guage is working correctly.
Under all circumstances of driving my temp seems to be permanently stuck on 3/4 (creeps towards 7/8 when at lights).
I left the engine tonight for about ~2 hours [after a fair drive], ignition on and startup and engine is on half temp, within driving ~100m the temp guage had already found the 3/4 mark again, whereby it stays whether highway driving etc.
(also seems to be able to go from dead cold to 3/4 faster than I can feel the engine getting that hot).
Temp guage worked perfectly on my 6 cyl.

She does get real damn hot to the touch after driving awhile, but there's a brand new radiator/fan sitting in front of her and there is no water leakage.

At the moment not using coolant, just straight water, but wouldn't think this would make a -huge- difference (at least not 1/4 of the guage where I'd like to see it!) in the older blocks?

I had the incorrect temp sender on there for about a week (barely ever registered a thing), hoping I haven't damaged my guage or am actually running my engine this close to dangerously hot.

Pulled into my driveway and tempature guage shot up to maximum (before I could even open my door to open gates) - immediately switched off ignition and checked wire - it's not earthing on the block or anything as such - turned car back over to get her inside and guage was at 3/4 again.
[edit] Forgot to mention: This afternoon when I put the sender in, the block was relatively cold and it did read at 1/4 temp.

Naturally when there is more light I will check wiring once more, but I really don't believe this is the problem <_<

Secondly: Does anybody know if an oil pressure sender from a 202 will work with a 308? (Different size threads/read different etc?) as they appear to be identical in shape/size.

Thanks guys.

Got a feeling I'm going to have to investigate some cooling measures in that cosy and toasty engine Bay. (LH)

Edited by Loki, 24 January 2006 - 11:22 PM.

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#2 _Flamenco_

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:25 PM

Try swapping the temp and oil wires over and see if the gauges behave the same - probably need an extended wire but as long as it doesn't earth along the block while testing it should be fine...

Oil sender (as long as it's not out of an LC/LJ) will be fine.

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#3 _Loki_

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:32 PM

I'll give it a try, but I'm 110% certain they are the right way around.
(Engine off + Ignition - after 2 hours 'cooldown' temp guage read 1/2, this afternoon when it was reasonably cold it read 1/4).

Reason I question the temp sender/guage is the reading of 1/2 from startup, to sitting on 3/4 in less time than it took to go around a small suburbian block.

(Would failing thermostat or anything in this general direction of thinking cause anything like this?)
[edit] May pay to test the water pump again to be doubly sure of that as well. <_< [/edit]

Thanks on the oil sender - will swap mine over from the 202 tomorrow.

Edited by Loki, 24 January 2006 - 11:37 PM.

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#4 _Flamenco_

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:39 PM

I think you misunderstood! I meant swap the actual wire clips from the oil sender to the temp sender - The 4 gauges are the same, it will just be showing the reading on the wrong quadrant of the dash (whilst you are testing).

If you get the same reading on 2 different gauges then you can be pretty sure the gauges themselves are fine.

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#5 _Loki_

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:52 PM

I think you misunderstood! I meant swap the actual wire clips from the oil sender to the temp sender - The 4 gauges are the same, it will just be showing the reading on the wrong quadrant of the dash (whilst you are testing).

If you get the same reading on 2 different gauges then you can be pretty sure the gauges themselves are fine.

Sorry

To test the guage itself, I understand the swapping.
I just meant they're the right way and I'm not reading them back to front or a user error like that

I'll have to give it all a test tomorrow.

Hopefully something sorts itself out, things always seem clearer after you put them down asking a question.
Might just straight up replace pump and thermostat anyway as a maintenance thing while I'm at it.

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#6 _Flamenco_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 12:01 AM

No worries - hope it turns out to be something simple!

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#7 _TORANR AMORE_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 09:39 AM

If you keep getting this problem and suspect your car is overheating for some unknown reason install a mechanical temperature guage, they're very accurate and you can get them at most common auto places and most importantly they are not electrical at all. From this you'll know an accurate measurement/reading of the temperature of water in the manifold in degree's farenheight etc, even when the engine and ignition is off. It's a worthy investment.

You can then work from that.
Then:

IF the car IS overheating, check all the standard things in the cooling system, like:
The Thermostat, to see if its opening or not. Take it out and put in in a pan of boiling water to see if it pops open. If not, replace it.
Check for circulation when the car is running at operating temperature buy inspection, (look in the radiator with the cap off and see if there is movement in the fluid). If therre is no movement the water pump may be stuffed and not circulating water.
etc, etc

By the way, I dont think coolant does much for temperature, although they call it 'coolant' it really inhibits corrosion and assits the fluid from going beyond boiling point.

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#8 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 10:05 AM

Interesting observation. I'm still running the VDO: 320.002 the old one written wrong in the book. It will normally read nothing under way, and creep up to 1/4 when the thermo's kick in, and move another half bar at the lights. If you turn the car off, and leave it for 5 minutes the heat soak pushes it up over half way on the guage.

I have NFI what temperature that acutally is, even if you buy an aftermarket one just temporarily fitted to find your actual temperature for a short while to see what is really happening.

I don't know if this is true or not, but from my experience I suspect it may be. With the 308, the fitting of the sender is a bit weird, i.e. you can keep bolting it in till it hits the adapter, however, I think if you try do that it is actually also hitting the metal on the inside of the head and therefore giving a metal temperature, and not a water temperature. As a result of my previous experience, which gave weird readings, I now never screw my temp senders all the way in. I just put gas tape on the treads for the sender, and screw it in about half way, or 5mm of thread still showing out the end of the adapter. The adapter should also have gas tape to prevent leaks.

FastEH or 82911 may be able to provide some clarity on this.

Just a thought.

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#9 ToRunYa

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 10:13 AM

mines the same sits on 3/4 normal driving and up in the red on a 40+ day also smelt hot so i took her the the local radiator place, he put a temp guage thingie in the radiator and said it was runnin in a perfect operating range.
When shes off the dial she's hot lol

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#10 _Flamenco_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 10:32 AM

My A9X used to run at about a third to two thirds on the scale but would start to overheat in traffic. The problem was the radiator was 40% blocked! Got that fixed and now it runs at next to cold unless up idling on the spot for 20mins...

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#11 _Loki_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 11:08 AM

Yella you may be onto something!
I did thread the new sender until it was all the way in (this is how the one I pulled out was).
I have put the plumbing tape on it to stop leaks.
Might give that a go now.

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#12 REDA9X

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 11:19 AM

Interesting point here is it seems to be starting off at half way. Am I right in thinking that? If it's parked overnight and you get in it, what is the gauge reading on startup? You did mention though that the engine did appear damn hot, but it has a new radiator. I had a similar drama a while, the engine was hot, the radiator was cold. It turned out the water pump was the problem, and it was brand new. The pump was cavitating at anything over about 90km/h. Just as a point, my car has a small radiator and a single 10" thermo fan, and it runs at about 1/4 on the gauge on most days.

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#13 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 12:08 PM

Test your sender with a multimeter. Remove the lead to it and measure the resistance between the sender wire terminal and the block. It should be fairly large when cold, over 300Ohms. Start the car, the resistance should gradually decrease as it gets hotter, decrease to around 60-100ohms, dont know exact values for temps on your car.
if this checks out the problem is not with the sensor but elsewhere-check this out 1st then go the next place....... It does sound like you have a possible short thats giving you half a gauge worth of reading to start with, could be something about being screwed in too far as Yella suggested, but not sure about that.
Water will cool best, provided you keep it under boiling.
Buy yourself a 0-150C thermometer and stick in the top tank(when its not boiling), can get electronic ones or simple bulb ones, valuable for at least identifying a particular spot on the gauge that corresponds to a known temp.
My favourite test, is the bottom hose as hot to the touch as the top hose(when in very hot condition), if so, unlikely you have a circulation prob.

Edited by devilsadvocate, 25 January 2006 - 12:09 PM.

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#14 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 12:16 PM

Circulation problem is also interesting. There are two types of aftermarket water pumps out there, one that has the cast impeller (closest to the GMH ones), and the other the tin one. I've found the cast impeller, just looks like round metal disk, blades are in toward the housing, work the best, i.e. give the best flow. Unfortunately I blew that one up at Wakefield and had to get the tin replacement. When I next have a few bucks spare, going to buy another cast impeller type.

The only definitive test results I have on flow is that the heater has worked the best it's ever worked with the cast one (more water flowing) than with the current shitty tin one.

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#15 _Loki_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 12:18 PM

Interesting point here is it seems to be starting off at half way. Am I right in thinking that? If it's parked overnight and you get in it, what is the gauge reading on startup? You did mention though that the engine did appear damn hot, but it has a new radiator. I had a similar drama a while, the engine was hot, the radiator was cold. It turned out the water pump was the problem, and it was brand new. The pump was cavitating at anything over about 90km/h. Just as a point, my car has a small radiator and a single 10" thermo fan, and it runs at about 1/4 on the gauge on most days.

Overnight it starts on zero (Dead cold).
After driving approximately 250-300m light foot it will already be on 1/4 temp.
I unthreaded the sender a little bit and my temp now seems to sit on 5/8th... (on a hot day today), that's a 1/8th improvement so far.

Off to third supercheap/repco [all been sold out] to track down a thermostat gasket so I can pull it out and test it anyway

Devil: Sender is brand new, only just installed it yesterday, there appears to be no problem with water flow that I can find (Still may be thermostat failing?).

Back to it.

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#16 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 01:17 PM

New sender, so the prob occured with the old sender too? Still wouldnt hurt to measure the resistances as suggested, perhaps its got something to do with how its installed.
Thermostat problem wouldnt cause the gauge to be still halfway after 2hours cooling of cooling.
How does your top/bottom hose temp compare, if near same temp, flow is good, so must be thermostat.
I assume that when you disconnect the wire to the sender, then the gauge goes to zero?

Edited by devilsadvocate, 25 January 2006 - 01:21 PM.

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#17 REDA9X

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 03:09 PM

when you get that 300m down the road, you should put a thermometer on the block and on the radiator and see if it really is getting hot, or it's just indication.

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#18 Dangerous

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 04:57 PM

Are any of your other gauges acting strangely?

Easiest way to check the temp gauge is to swap the oil pressure and temp sender wires, and see if the oil pressure gauge then acts exactly the same as the temp gauge is doing. If it does, then it will most likely be a problem with your temp sender unit or wire - not the gauge itself. Yes, the temp sender units can bottom out on metal parts inside the inlet manifold which can affect their reading.

Another method to check your gauges is to go to any electronics store, and buy one watt resistors in the resistances of 68 ohms, 33 ohms and 10 ohms. Put each resistor in turn in between the sender unit wire and earth (the block or inlet manifold metal will do. The 10 ohm resistor should make the gauge read full scale, the 33 ohm should make it read around 1/2 way, and the 68 ohm should make it read around the lowest marking. NEVER short the sender wire to earth.

This method can be used to check the oil, temp and fuel gauges, but obviously not the voltage gauge.

An oil pressure sender from any LH/LX will suit any starfire 4, 6 cyl or V8. They are not interchangeable with other models of Holdens, except I think the HJ/X/Z range, but not HQ.

Holden V8 water pumps - pay the extra, and stick with the genuine unit. Aftermaret tin impellor pumps aren't much good, and most of the aftermarket cast impellor type have too much clearance between the impellor and pump body, leading to cavitation, and 'leakage' past the rotating impellor. REDA9X, I think this is what may have happened to your 'new' pump which didn't work too well.

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#19 _EXLXSL_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 05:39 PM

Is the gauge cluster all original. By that I mean has the voltage stabiliser been repaired or replaced. My cluster had dead oil and water (fuel and voltage were fine) gauges so I bought a set off eBay. I thought that as I know my voltage stabiliser is working I would swap that over to the new cluster but the readings were all far too low. Put the stabiliser that came with the cluster back in and it was fine. They do have a small screw on the back so they can be adjusted - just a thought.

If you get high readings by swapping the temp over to the oil pressure gauge - could it be a mis-adjusted voltage stabilier?

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#20 REDA9X

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 05:46 PM

REDA9X, I think this is what may have happened to your 'new' pump which didn't work too well.

Yes dave, you are 100% correct, however, genuine Holden now use the tin impellor. I bought 2 Holden ones with cast impellors, one to put away.

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#21 _Loki_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 06:24 PM

Ok, essentially this is a genuine LH SL/R 3300.
Guages were all working fine, pulled out the 202 and dumped in a 308. (bored 60 thou over which I confirmed, supposedly stroked and some head work done - never measured the stroke and the heads when i pulled them off didnt look any different to standard to me - possibly larger valves]...

I pulled thermostat off this arvo and chucked it in boiling water, didnt appear to open, so I threw in a new thermostat since they're cheap... The thing still gets up to 5/8th and 3/4 when running now (a bit better than 3/4 and 7/8th!).

Guys, when I said she was on 1/2 temp after 2 hours of cooling, this means she was sitting out front a house for approximately (the length of a full feature movie) 1.5-2 hours before being driven again.
Whereby the temperature guage read 3/4 when pulling up, and registered 1/2 when restarting her to go home.

The tempature guage when the engine is stone cold reads zero, when it's warm to the touch it reads 1/8, 1/4 and so on.

Water is flowing across the radiator, both in and out radiator hoses are both equally very hot.

The guages across oil/temp are the same when switching so I'm doubting the guage.

I'm really at a loss as to why it's this hot.
I considered ignition timing, but it idles and drives nicely and it's where it should be so I think I have it set fine, it has no issues with running on etc. Plus to generate that much excess heat from poor ignition I would expect to see the car running rather poorly.

Not losing any water, no leaks anywhere, no water in oil or anything in water, fluid level drops [and only perhaps 100ml] after maybe 2-3 hot days of driving around which I would attribute to natural evaporation.

I don't have any bonnet scoops or heat shields to help under there and everything seems to be fairly tight and cosy, which obviously couldn't help too much.
I don't believe (from memory) that it was running this hot when it was in the VB Commodore with the same brand new radiator etc. Don't think I even have a single dented fin on that thing yet!
The Turbo350 coolant lines go through that radiator, not sure whether that would reduce the effectiveness of it, but again, I wouldn't expect to see that much of a change.

Running out of the usual suspects to look for :fool:

Edited by Loki, 25 January 2006 - 06:26 PM.

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#22 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 09:09 PM

So it has been running hot since you have put this motor in it?

You havent established how hot yet, does throwing a few drops of water on the top tank see them evaporate instantly?

Does it run much cooler if the ambient temperature is cooler?

You're problem is at all speeds, idle etc?

What do you have for airflow and what type of rad?

Still see something fishy in a motor that is still at about 100C 2hours after turning it off.

.......the word is gAuge

Edited by devilsadvocate, 25 January 2006 - 09:17 PM.

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#23 _Jewboy_

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 10:14 PM

You might need to check your electrics for good earth, on my car the temp is usually about 1/3 but if you turn the lights on it increases by 1/4 (all guages not just temp). I still haven't got around to check the earth wires.

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#24 REDA9X

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 06:59 AM

I'd be finding out if in fact it is actually getting hot or not before doing anything. It sounds unusual it would get so hot in such a short space of time. You can buy stick on thermometers perfect for testing this. I have a laser heat tester at work thats brilliant, you just aim it at the block and radiator and it will tell you how hot it is. Another thing you could do is run the car for a while and when the temp gets up, let it idle and pour water over the radiator and see if the guage temperature goes down, but you really need to determine how hot it actually is getting before you do anything else, otherwise you could go changing expensive components for nothing.

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#25 enderwigginau

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Posted 26 January 2006 - 10:21 AM

Still see something fishy in a motor that is still at about 100C 2hours after turning it off.

Cast iron block and head, and mechanical water pump. The heat will tend to stay in the metal/engine bay.
The 208 and 230 both ran at half to 3/4 gauge and were perfectly fine.
And the engine was still stinking hot aftertwo hours.

Grant..