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#76 _Torana482HP_

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:25 PM

they wouldnt be the same accel rates in both cases, cause the one with the soft springs will be squating more and have more traction because of the weight transfer to the back wheels. Every action has a reaction, how can they perform the same if one has shocks and the other dosent. One must perform better.

All you have to do is watch any drag car and you will see how much they squat at takeoff.

if what you are saying is true then why dont all drag cars just install metal bars instead of springs and shock absorbers.

The reason people want their cars to squat off the line is so all that tyre spinning power is absorbed by the springs and shocks and then when they are fully compressed they are already moving forward and take maximum advantage of the weight transfer.

grip, acceleration and angle of attack are 3 critical things that make weight transfer work in a drag car.
you cant compare bits of wood or anything to how a drag car uses weight transfer unless you have a grip on the ground, an accelerating force and angle of attack on that bit of wood, your logic is good but your missing the real world variables of a drag car.

Edited by Torana482HP, 23 February 2006 - 09:26 PM.


#77 _Jewboy_

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:45 PM

It seems that Toranr Amore Has explained what i was trying to say alot more technically. I was trying to point out earlier that with the softer springs it allows greater movement to the rear which in turn increases the down force due to the extra distance and speed of the body's travel. I read on the other site that was posted and they were saying that spring rates mean nothing, but if its nothing why bother changing them? you could try to argue that stiffer springs are trying to push the tyres into the ground more but in reality they are defeating gravity thus decreasing the down force.

It should also be noted that the pics you have drawn it shows that the position of CoG starts at a rectangle (comparing rear of car, base of wheel, CoG and line of gravity) as squat increases it changes to a trapiziod and as squat increases further it gets closer to a triangle in doing so also increasing the angle increase by a higher degree which adds to the force.

#78 _Herne_

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:09 PM

when is the book coming out?

#79 _jap-xu1_

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:30 PM

just bloody put em in!
its gotta be easier than reading all that!

#80 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:55 AM

if what you are saying is true then why dont all drag cars just install metal bars instead of springs and shock absorbers.

Hi Guys

Ive spent a good deal of time offering my thoughts here. Have I changed anyone's mind here.................. I wouldnt expect to(but it would appear most have actually given it some thought) as these views, either correctly or incorrectly, have been built up over a period of time basically just due to heresay and perhaps incorrect inferences to observations.

Its obvious I could keep replying to questions such as the one quoted, but its a little tiresome, either some forum members have limited comprehension skills or are deliberately twisting my words.

I'll clarify what Ive said for the final time: Soft springs or non springs at all, still allow the "weight transfer" thing to happen.
Please not: I havent stated that all drag cars best have no suspension at all, or that there is not a measurable increase in force over the rear axle when the vehicle is accelerating.

Which works best? As Ive said on numberous occasions: Thats what Im definitely not qualified to speak on - there are many out there that have come up with combos that work most effectively - what works best here has to be a complex series of interactions between shocks, position of C of M , springs, tyres, actual engine power and any other number of variables that affect a drag car.
No one has talked much about the "real dragsters", they have minimal squat on the line, yes they are different(basically no suspension) C of M closer to axle height, etc.

Go in peace....Im finished on this thread.

#81 rodomo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 04:12 PM

z z z z z z :ZZZ:

#82 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:31 PM

Just some info, not wishing to reignite the thread.
Brian Beckman has some great "physics of racing" info in gear calculator, including "weight transfer" that would be good background reading for most.
http://phors.locost7.info/phors01.htm

#83 _Torana482HP_

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:38 PM

had a quick squiz but i gotta go to sleep, looks interesting though, probably settle the discussion about weight transfer

#84 _TORANR AMORE_

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Posted 02 March 2006 - 12:04 PM

You still appear fixed in the view that if you don�t see a squat then there isn�t a force there

Not true. I never said that. I was very careful not to.
Obviously there is a force at play there, otherwise there would be nothing to compress the rear springs. My focus is the additional effect created when the springs are compressed further and there is more downward travel of the rear of the vehicle.

About what you said about at 15degress you only get 3percent CoG closer to the rear wheels, that's a lot and don't forget that during the squat the rear end also accelerates downwards (travel) with this extra weight. If your starting to concede that it does work but the effects are not significant then you need to remember that all drag racers do every small mod that they can to get every incremental improvement including dumping the exhaust etc.

Just had a quick squiz at the link you gave, bloody good find mate :spoton:

He describes the physics of weight transfer in a very simplistic way, but not sure if ge goes on later to describe how suspension plays a part in enhancing it (don't think do), although he does hint with factors such as height etc. The model he uses probably assumes firm suspension all around. His description focus is based on moment of inertia through the centre of gravity through an accelerating/de-accelerating mass, I have no arguement with that.

When I get time to sit down undistracted at home after work I want to read through all the chapters on that site, but at this stage, I haven't seen anything he has written that contradicts what I was saying before, rather, he may have written a few things that has contradicted what you were saying regarding weight transfer and Centre of Gravity, but I'm gonna have to read it properly, I'm at work now.

In the mean time I have one small point to make, just because he doesn't factor into it the effects of suspension setup and how that enhances the weight transfer, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. In that article he was describing what weight transfer is in the simplest manner he could without making it more complex by adding extra factors into it.

Once again, excellent find! I was trying for ages to find info like that. I was starting to think that I was going to have to pull out the old uni text books and do it myself.

I need to get more savvy with the search engines.

By the way, I've found this similar debate in forums all over the world, all of them with very little or no resolution, so this thread seems to be doing ok, at least it's deriving an answer.




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