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Oil Surge to be fixed with sump! More info needed

Started by _Tiny_ , Mar 10 2006 11:38 AM

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49 replies to this topic

#1 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:38 AM

Gday everyone,

For those who didnt see my question in my members projects thread i thought i might ask in here.

Since installing the new 3.7 ratio yesterday, ive noticed a fluctuation in the oil pressure when accelerating hard.

My oil pressure at anything above idle is 62Psi ( Hot), and at idle around 20Psi.
What i noticed was that as the car accelerates with more force than before, I watched the oil pressure guage fall from 62 Psi down to around 20-25 Psi... It came back when i got off the gas and the acceleration force stopped.

I'm running a 400 Smallblock chev with a blueprinted bigblock oil pump, systems 1 oil filter, oil restrictors in the galleries, deburred valley/block/heads to assist oil drainback, standard HQ type sump, and i'm using pennzoil 25-50 oil.

Any ideas thoughts or comments would be great. I'd rather not have to go for a high energy sump.. but if its going to solve this problem and stop the motor from going bang.. then i'll do it!
(Thing is... when we lift the motor out to install the sump... i might be temped to tickle it more... you know... just while its out!)

Cheers :rolleyes:

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#2 makka

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:39 AM

can you somehow move your oil pickup lower or further back?

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#3 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:53 AM

I guess that would involve a custom pickup... I know that the standard pickup does sit nice and low in the sump but i belive it does sit toward the front of the bowl! Not a bad idea

Thanks!

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#4 makka

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 12:11 PM

but then again, your gonna have to take the donk out to do that.... :tease:

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#5 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 01:16 PM

Additional drainage from the tappet covers to the sump, either by way of a oil catch can, or direct lines from the tappet cover to the sump.

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#6 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 02:07 PM

If that's what it is pat that could be a solution.. i hope not!! but thanks

Makka: Yeah tell me about it

I Dont wanna! Nooooo stop twisting me arm! LOL

Cheers guys

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#7 _devilsadvocate_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 05:01 PM

did think about the ^ as a possibility Tiny, that perhaps the oil is forced to the back of the rocker covers on acceleration, and cant all make it down the drainage holes near the back of the head? However, not all the oil in the motor is directed to the top of the motor? some is directed directly at the important bearings etc and should still be circulating? (Im using ? as I dont really know, just thinking aloud), but perhaps the amount trapped up top is making the difference along with the stuff forced away from the pickup on acceleration.
How could you tell which is happening without actually performing the fix? Dont know, would need to have some type of level recorder inside your rocker cover.
Id imagine this problem has been seen b4 in drag cars, is the overflow tube from rocker to sump a common feature?

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#8 _82911_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 06:20 PM

Good on ya big guy.....You must be rapt now it is finally doing what you wanted it to do.
told you some steep gears would wake that thing up!!! Still rekon you need 4.1:1` 's... <_<
Now remember what I said about .."when you get it to hook up and pull hard" A whole host of new problems will arise....
Welcome to the 1st of them pal!!!
Oil surge with the chev pick up is not all that uncommon. And if it does it on the street it is going to do it worse on the track.. Sorry not what u wanted to hear i know!
Band aid..... put another litre in the sump, and pray your front and rear gaskets are in good shape.
Better option..... get a proper sump, and place the pick up within a 1/4 of an inch of the floor of the pan and towards the rear of the sump bowl. Just remember though if it fixes it on the launch.. you get the opposite at the other end under brakes!!! Baffles and trap doors are the solution.
if you get stuck call me my phone is always on..

Cheers Greg..

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#9 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 08:23 PM

Devils: I have an oil restrictor kit installed in the engine that all chevs should run with modified oil pumps. It STOPS the heads from getting excessive oil so i doubt i'm filling her up that bad... It is possible, but i think its just washing away from the pickup and i'm getting cavitation... Sump with baffles and slush gates needed!

Thanks greg! I'll take you up on that mate..

I'm more than happy to say it.. You were right as always!!!!

I never doubted what youve said and i'm glad you were kind enough to let me know what i was in for so i could keep an eye out!!

I noticed this problem beginning to arise on teh track, but cause of my crappy acceleration it never was enough to get concerned about.. but this is!! I'm REALLY scared of starving a bearing and then spinning it under acceleration! i simply cant afford to grenade an engine!

I'm over the moon with the 3.7s, its still ok on the freeway but its UNREAL under acceleration so i think ive found my happy medium!

Anyhow.. I'm thinking about hoping for the best.. using the extra litre trick to race it at heathcote next weekend, and then going the sump.. But i'm just scared if i do race and kill the engine...... Ahhh the joys of it all!

Thanks again mate.

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#10 _82911_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:42 PM

Just thought of 1 more thing....
Struggler would prolly be more familiar with the symptoms of this than me.. but anyway....
The pick up tube on a chev is a press fit into the pump body, and they can work there way off due to vibration. Do you remember if you tack welded the pick up tube to the pump body during the engine build. Cliff would prolly do this as a matter of course.. did he assemble the pan and pump??

Cheers Greg..

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#11 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 09:47 PM

We actually tapped a grub screw into the pump body to grab the pickup tube cause your right.. its a common problem.

Cliff blueprinted the pump and assembled everthing complete on the engine!

Cheers

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#12 _SSHatch_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 10:05 PM

Mine had a screw holding the pickup in place and it slowly came loose!!

When I rebuilt it last time I got one of the guys at work to Bronze the pick up in place!! Also made sure that the pick up was sitting only 2-4 mm off the sump.

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#13 Tiny

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 10:13 PM

Thats something that crossed my mind when greg brought it up...

if the pickup did fall out.. technically i would have NO oil pressure? cause the inlet hole is actually above the oil level?

Thanks for your help guys!

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#14 _Yella SLuR_

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Posted 10 March 2006 - 11:18 PM

If it was working loose, could be where you are getting your cavitation from. Aren't cars a bitch when you start pushing em to perform. Hope you find it.

Edited by Yella SLuR, 10 March 2006 - 11:19 PM.

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#15 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 07:06 AM

Can you make time to drop the sump and check the pickup before you leave for Heathcote? More for peace of mind than anything.

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#16 _SSHatch_

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 09:54 AM

Yeah sorry, didnt explain myself real well there!!

Thats kinda what mine was doing, pick up had worked loose and I would get fluctuations in oil pressure due to it sucking air, not oil.

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#17 Tiny

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Posted 11 March 2006 - 05:37 PM

No worries SSHatch i follow ya now!

Pat: too right mate! pain in the ARSE!

Chop: thats the plan.. Luckily this week is low on work (well.. Unlucky for teh bank balance!!)

But what i'm going to start with is to remove the oil filter tomorrowm give it a thorough oil change and use some engine oil flush to try and clear it right out... Fresh oil.. and see what it does.

The engine builder doesnt belive i could have a problem in the sump but the pickup is a definite possiblity...

Will try the oil change and see how it goes! Fingers crossed and thanks for your ideas!

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#18 Tiny

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 05:36 PM

OK...
Ive finally gotten the shits enough to fix this problem.

I'm going to buy a new sump, pickup, pump and install the LOT!

Now.. Choosing the sump!
While it's a street/strip car.. i want to have a baffle system that also stops sideways oil surge ( for when i do DOUGHIES... theyre just too much fun!).

I'm looking at the following Hi-Energy Pans. Can you guys let me know what you think and reccomend?

Street/Strip PRO ELIMINATOR pan
Model: HE3210 SB Chev. HQ Mesh, Gate, Pick Up $576.00
OR
HE3210-1PCE SB Chev. HQ Mesh, Gate, Pick Up, 1 Piece Rear Main, $621.48

I'm not sure what they mean by 1 piece rear main... My 400 has a neoprene rear main.. but its defintiely 2 piece!?!?

OR

CLUB RACE PAN

Club Race Pans-CHEVROLET, suit club circuit race cars
HE8249 Club Race SB Chev. HQ, 3 Gates, Pick Up $840.27
HETEMP-3 Fit 1/8" Temp Sender Fitting $14.87

Has anybody used these pans? and what could you reccomend? I cant find any information on Russel oil pans.. apparently theyre just as good, but i cant find any info on them!

I want to get this done, done ONCE and fixed for good.. i'm SICK of playing with it!!

Cheers!

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#19 _SSHatch_

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 06:11 PM

HE3210-1PCE SB Chev. HQ Mesh, Gate, Pick Up, 1 Piece Rear Main, $621.48

I'm not sure what they mean by 1 piece rear main... My 400 has a neoprene rear main.. but its defintiely 2 piece!?!?

It means exactly as it says.
The rear main is a one piece seal, looks like a donut.
You simply pop out the seal and tap a new one in, unlike the two piece that you and I have that require the crank out to change the seal.
Most later model cars run a one piece seal as its much much cheaper to replace as you dont need to pull th engine apart to do so.

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#20 Tiny

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

Arha! i *THOUGHT* so... i just thought i'd better clarify it so i dont order the wrong thing

Many thanks for that!

I'm leaning towards the circuit sump.. I think it'll work for teh drag racing as well as the "circle work" ;P

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#21 _alx ss_

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:08 PM

hi Tiny mine was doing the same thing as yours( bloody pick up). I ended up buying the high energy circuit race sump mainly because i do take the car cicuit racing and drag racing and all i can say is all my oil problems are gone, doesn,t mater how hard i take a corner the oil pressure will stay consistant with the engines rpm. My mate who also races his ford xa with me bought just the pick up from high energy and copied my sumps box with the gates and welded it to his sump, cost him alot less and works just as good as mine. If you want more information let me know and i will pm you my number.

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#22 Tiny

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:57 PM

Gday ALX, Thats unreal mate, I was tossing up wether to go for the circuit sump, or the drag one.. but ive been thinking about it and your comments back up my thoughts!

I'm going to go for the circuit pan, that way i know under all conditions we'll be right!

Can i ask, what did you have to do oil filter wise?
I was lucky enough to be able to get my car onto a 4 post hoist this morning and i had a really good look under it...
It looks like if i go for a winged sump, that i'll need to go remote oil filter because i wont be able to get th filter off! ( its a prick of a job as it is!).

Hmm one thing after another! Do you happen to have any dimensions from your sump? the wing dimensions etc?

THanks for your help mate!

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#23 _alx ss_

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 01:59 PM

i ended up going remote with the oil filter, its just to tight with the wing sump and exhaust system. I am changing the oil tomorrow so i will take some measurements and photos for you.

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#24 Tiny

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:08 PM

unreal thanks!

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#25 Tiny

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 06:18 PM

One other question relating to this issue...

I'm running a Bigblock oil pump in the small block.. Apparently this is a common upgrade! My question is, is there any difference in the pickup i'm going to need? THe sump comes with high Energy's race pickup which i want to use, but does anyone know if its the same if your using a bigblock pump VS a smallblock one?

What pump are all the chev guys here using now?