I just run the short oil filter on my SBC. The longer filter wont fit because of the winged sump but the short is fine. Cant remember the number, any good Auto Supplies store would soon be able to figure it out though.
And its still easy as to get out, just reach in from beind the LH Front wheel, grab hold and wind it off and then fill up the new one with oil and wind it on. Much easier than a Holden V8 I feel.
As for the oil pump question, cant comment as I have never heard of running the big block pump in a small block. All I do know is that we spent many hours setting up the pic up so it sat right near the floor of the sump for best pick up and then we bronzed it all in place rather than the stupid grib screw that was recommended.
Oil Surge to be fixed with sump! More info needed
Started by
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, Mar 10 2006 11:38 AM
49 replies to this topic
#27
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 07:25 PM
great info thanks SS 
Yeah when we get the sump off it'll show us whats happened.. and if the pickup needs welding.. then so be it!!
Cheers
Yeah when we get the sump off it'll show us whats happened.. and if the pickup needs welding.. then so be it!!
Cheers
#28
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 07:41 PM
Ok so I just happened to be going through some of my pics and found these that I thought may be of assistance to you.
This one shows the Smaller Shorter Filter in place and the amount of clearance to the sump.
(Note I removed the gearbox purely for picture clarity. It works best with the gearbox in place.!!
)
This one shows what I was talking about with bronzing the pick up in place on the oil pump.
(Once again I removed the car and sump only for picture clarity. The pick up works much better with a sump full of oil fitted to the engine.
)
Cheers,
PJ
This one shows the Smaller Shorter Filter in place and the amount of clearance to the sump.
(Note I removed the gearbox purely for picture clarity. It works best with the gearbox in place.!!
)This one shows what I was talking about with bronzing the pick up in place on the oil pump.
(Once again I removed the car and sump only for picture clarity. The pick up works much better with a sump full of oil fitted to the engine.
)Cheers,
PJ
#29
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 07:48 PM
mate run a super pan for sure it will fix all your dramas. personaly i do not like restrictor kits in street chevs as they need a reasonable amount of oil up top to keep the valve springs cool its what makes the springs live on the street.
#30
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:25 PM
Great stuff! Thanks for those pics PJ!
I'm actually running a systems 1 reusable oil filter, which is the short style.. So that may be ok! its just that the pacemaker extractors sit awefully close to the oil filter as it is ( infact has been rubbing on the damn filter i noticed today
I'll defintiely be doing SOMETHING to the pickup better than just the grub screw.. too much chance of something going wrong with it!
1QuickLJ: thats an interesting thought! I never thought about the valve springs and heat... I'm running a solid cam and again i was advised to use the restrictors.. Hmmm something more to think about! Thanks!
I'm actually running a systems 1 reusable oil filter, which is the short style.. So that may be ok! its just that the pacemaker extractors sit awefully close to the oil filter as it is ( infact has been rubbing on the damn filter i noticed today
I'll defintiely be doing SOMETHING to the pickup better than just the grub screw.. too much chance of something going wrong with it!
1QuickLJ: thats an interesting thought! I never thought about the valve springs and heat... I'm running a solid cam and again i was advised to use the restrictors.. Hmmm something more to think about! Thanks!
#31
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Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:49 PM
Just a suggestion in regard to securing the oil pickup pipe,
DONT weld them into the pump, its the old 60's way of thinking. Why wreck/distort a good oil pump ???
Make a small support bracket from 1/2" wide strapping & weld that to the pickup pipe & use the 1/4 unc cover bolt to secure it in place.
Saves distorting the pump & risking a sticky/ distorted pressure relief valve in the cover plate.
All the hi-flow & performance pickup pipes are secured with a "check strap".
I can post some pics if you want of the way i make them. I do all my chevs this way.
DONT weld them into the pump, its the old 60's way of thinking. Why wreck/distort a good oil pump ???
Make a small support bracket from 1/2" wide strapping & weld that to the pickup pipe & use the 1/4 unc cover bolt to secure it in place.
Saves distorting the pump & risking a sticky/ distorted pressure relief valve in the cover plate.
All the hi-flow & performance pickup pipes are secured with a "check strap".
I can post some pics if you want of the way i make them. I do all my chevs this way.
#32
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 08:57 AM
That would be great Toranamuk, Thanks for that! I suppose that the High Enegery pickup would come with a check strap anyway so i may not have to worry about doing this!
May i ask your opinion onusing a bigblock pump in a smallblock? You mentioned doing all your chevs this way, i was wondering if you would have any idea on this!
Many thanks!
May i ask your opinion onusing a bigblock pump in a smallblock? You mentioned doing all your chevs this way, i was wondering if you would have any idea on this!
Many thanks!
#33
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 10:22 PM
I only use standard volume big block pumps on small blocks occasionally, & that's only for speedway engines with Zail or Hi-energy winged & baffled sumps & large oil volume. The relief valve valve needs to be re-shimmed.
For the drag & serious street engines I normally use the Moroso modified mellings hi-volume oil pump with the anti-cavitation slots milled into the housing & cover plate.
Die-grind & radius all the galleries inside the pump & port match the oil pump to the main cap & radius the main caps gallery to the block.
Generally, & its my opinion, i feel that using a big block pump overloads the distributor drive, & that on a street car the relief valve is worked fairly hard & continual, which leads to disturbed oil flow in the pump inlet port.
I've seen a lot more wear inside the big block pumps, which look like the result of cavitation, hence my theory above, the small block pumps seem to last longer & have been in better condition after a hard season of use.
Totally my theory & belief, but its my name on the engines i build.
If i can before i go to sandown thursday, i'll post a pic of the oil pick up from a V8 dirt modified thats being prepped for the upcoming season.
For the drag & serious street engines I normally use the Moroso modified mellings hi-volume oil pump with the anti-cavitation slots milled into the housing & cover plate.
Die-grind & radius all the galleries inside the pump & port match the oil pump to the main cap & radius the main caps gallery to the block.
Generally, & its my opinion, i feel that using a big block pump overloads the distributor drive, & that on a street car the relief valve is worked fairly hard & continual, which leads to disturbed oil flow in the pump inlet port.
I've seen a lot more wear inside the big block pumps, which look like the result of cavitation, hence my theory above, the small block pumps seem to last longer & have been in better condition after a hard season of use.
Totally my theory & belief, but its my name on the engines i build.
If i can before i go to sandown thursday, i'll post a pic of the oil pick up from a V8 dirt modified thats being prepped for the upcoming season.
Edited by Toranamuk, 27 August 2006 - 10:26 PM.
#34
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 10:44 PM
Thats awesome information, Thanks for that!
I Suppose every engine builder has their theories and reasons for doing what they do, and that comes from their experiences! Thank you very much for sharing that knowledge I really appreciate it.
To the best of my knowledge the pump i'm running is a standard bigblock pump as you meniotned above. I can comment on whether the relief spring was played with ot not!
I'm really happy with my current oil pressure ( 20Psi idle 64Psi at revs hot).. So i'm thinking to leave the pump itself alone.
I think that changing sump and pickup should solve the current problem, and give me back a nice stable 64Psi at revs!
Once again thanks for sharing your hard earnt knowledge!
I Suppose every engine builder has their theories and reasons for doing what they do, and that comes from their experiences! Thank you very much for sharing that knowledge I really appreciate it.
To the best of my knowledge the pump i'm running is a standard bigblock pump as you meniotned above. I can comment on whether the relief spring was played with ot not!
I'm really happy with my current oil pressure ( 20Psi idle 64Psi at revs hot).. So i'm thinking to leave the pump itself alone.
I think that changing sump and pickup should solve the current problem, and give me back a nice stable 64Psi at revs!
Once again thanks for sharing your hard earnt knowledge!
#35
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Posted 27 August 2006 - 11:18 PM
Something to help the dissy gear live a bit longer is to file a small slot, about .010" to .020" deep through the lower raised section of the dissy case.
The section of the dissy that separates the lifter oil passage & is supposed to be a snug fit in the block, it is open to full oil pressure, & even with restrictor kits fitted there's enough oil pressure available.
Put a mark on your dissy that is directly to the front, then put another mark at 90 degrees (anti clockwise) to that. That's were the dissy drive meets the cam.
Just by giving it some pressurised oil feed will greatly extend the life of the drive gear, & it's more important as the oil pump loads get higher, bronze or hardened drive gears, etc etc.
I spend 10+ hours just on preparing the oil system/galleries on most of the comp engines, from enlarging & radiusing galleries to serious work on the block for return flow to the sump.
The section of the dissy that separates the lifter oil passage & is supposed to be a snug fit in the block, it is open to full oil pressure, & even with restrictor kits fitted there's enough oil pressure available.
Put a mark on your dissy that is directly to the front, then put another mark at 90 degrees (anti clockwise) to that. That's were the dissy drive meets the cam.
Just by giving it some pressurised oil feed will greatly extend the life of the drive gear, & it's more important as the oil pump loads get higher, bronze or hardened drive gears, etc etc.
I spend 10+ hours just on preparing the oil system/galleries on most of the comp engines, from enlarging & radiusing galleries to serious work on the block for return flow to the sump.
#36
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Posted 28 August 2006 - 08:48 AM
That's really interesting regarding the Dizzy! I can certainly see why, it makes ALOT of sense!
I know that My engine builder took a fair bit of time on the oiling system, you guys obviously know whats important to an engine!
Thanks again for that tip! I'll see what i can accomplish when the engine comes out!
Greatly appreciated!
I know that My engine builder took a fair bit of time on the oiling system, you guys obviously know whats important to an engine!
Thanks again for that tip! I'll see what i can accomplish when the engine comes out!
Greatly appreciated!
#37
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:56 AM
here are some pics of the sump, i have 4 into 1 pipes so its very tight , basically dumied everything up on engine stand to make sure everythig fits. I am not sure what pump i am using (some aftermarket brand) but i know its not a big block pump. Any way if i find my receipts i will let you know. the width off the tray is 300mm, ( at its widest points ) length is not a problem. Hope this helps.
#38
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 08:43 AM
Thanks Very much for that ALX!
THe last pic is the one that worries me!!
Cause i've got 4-1s myself, and the new pacemakers run nice and tight to the block and floor pan, I'm concerned about having problems getting the filter on and off! To access it from the rear is a bit of a pain with the convertor cover ETC!
I think whaqt i'm going to do is get the pan i want/need ( circuit race pan but not the top of the line ones), fit it all up and see how i go with the filter.. IF then i need a remote setup.. so be it!
I'll do all i can to NOT use a remote setup for the reasons mentioned above!
Cheers, and thanks again for taking those pics!
THe last pic is the one that worries me!!
Cause i've got 4-1s myself, and the new pacemakers run nice and tight to the block and floor pan, I'm concerned about having problems getting the filter on and off! To access it from the rear is a bit of a pain with the convertor cover ETC!
I think whaqt i'm going to do is get the pan i want/need ( circuit race pan but not the top of the line ones), fit it all up and see how i go with the filter.. IF then i need a remote setup.. so be it!
I'll do all i can to NOT use a remote setup for the reasons mentioned above!
Cheers, and thanks again for taking those pics!
#39
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:13 PM
Do you have oil temp issues with the pipes that close to the sump??
#40
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 01:11 PM
Tiny, dont forget there is heaps more space in a HQ, compared to a torana!
#41
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 05:43 PM
Howard: I dont have an engine oil temp guage.. but the new sump ( $15.. why not!!) will have! Havent noticed any hassles in relation to the temp.. but it is MIGHTY close!
Makka: Yeah i know your right mate, thats another thing i was thinking. BUT it seems pacemaker have made their pipes VERY close to the block which means ive got acres of room around the pipes.. just none under them! hehe!
That's the reason i *COULD* go remote filter.. but would definitely prefer not to...
(And before you say it howard... i cant afford to dry sump it!!! and i know i know.. my oil pan will have same capacity as your whole engine
)
Makka: Yeah i know your right mate, thats another thing i was thinking. BUT it seems pacemaker have made their pipes VERY close to the block which means ive got acres of room around the pipes.. just none under them! hehe!
That's the reason i *COULD* go remote filter.. but would definitely prefer not to...
(And before you say it howard... i cant afford to dry sump it!!! and i know i know.. my oil pan will have same capacity as your whole engine
)
#42
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 05:51 PM
Only 8 litres of oil? My oil tank holds 12 litres!
#43
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 06:08 PM
hahahah as i said.. i WONT dry sump it!! LOL!
Yes... Yours is DEFINTIELY bigger than mine
as i said.. i WONT dry sump it!! LOL!Yes... Yours is DEFINTIELY bigger than mine
#44
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Posted 30 August 2006 - 07:17 PM
Hey Tiny you know i had to throw my 5 cents in. ) hehe
All i can suggest hopefully this fixes your problem firstly.
Secondarly buy the biggest sump you can afford and try and use the biggest filter you can afford.
Hope this advised helped .
Denis
All i can suggest hopefully this fixes your problem firstly.
Secondarly buy the biggest sump you can afford and try and use the biggest filter you can afford.
Hope this advised helped .
Denis
#45
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Posted 30 August 2006 - 07:26 PM
Thanks Denis!
Yeah i'm trying to source the right pan.. High Energy is 5-6 weeks wait time! I cant wait that long!
So trying to ring around to find another pan.. maybe a milodon...
CHeers dude!
Yeah i'm trying to source the right pan.. High Energy is 5-6 weeks wait time! I cant wait that long!
So trying to ring around to find another pan.. maybe a milodon...
CHeers dude!
#46
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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:44 PM
[QUOTE] (litre8 Posted on Aug 29 2006, 12:13 PM )
?? Do you have oil temp issues with the pipes that close to the sump
To be honest i did have problems with the oil thinning out during circuit days , until i started using pennzoil racing staight 50w, now its fine and didn't think much of it, maybe there is to much heat for the other oils, its a good point you brought up and to be honest it never crossed my mind until now.
?? Do you have oil temp issues with the pipes that close to the sump
To be honest i did have problems with the oil thinning out during circuit days , until i started using pennzoil racing staight 50w, now its fine and didn't think much of it, maybe there is to much heat for the other oils, its a good point you brought up and to be honest it never crossed my mind until now.
#47
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 11:17 AM
Rob,
Can I sell you an ex-Litre8 twin filter remote mount???
Takes ford pattern filters of which you can get some nice short ones.
The undertray wouldn't go on the LX with the long filters, as we had the mount on the side splash guard.
Also an ex-HDT oil cooler here to0......
Grant..
Can I sell you an ex-Litre8 twin filter remote mount???
Takes ford pattern filters of which you can get some nice short ones.
The undertray wouldn't go on the LX with the long filters, as we had the mount on the side splash guard.
Also an ex-HDT oil cooler here to0......
Grant..
#48
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 04:47 PM
Thanks grant,
Ive ordered my High Energy sump, and what i'm going to do is to fit it all up, and then see how it goes. I really DONT want remote filter if i can avoid it.. but if worst comes to worst i'll do it!
IF i do decide to do it, I'll let ya know, Thanks for the offer! If i do go remote filter mount, then i'll defintiely put an oil cooler on too.. Just cause you can i spose!
Cheers!
Ive ordered my High Energy sump, and what i'm going to do is to fit it all up, and then see how it goes. I really DONT want remote filter if i can avoid it.. but if worst comes to worst i'll do it!
IF i do decide to do it, I'll let ya know, Thanks for the offer! If i do go remote filter mount, then i'll defintiely put an oil cooler on too.. Just cause you can i spose!
Cheers!
#49
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 07:07 PM
Tiny did some reserch today asking my engine builder.. and his words were " Only a moron would put a big block oil pump on a small block " It only causes more problems.. and there is no gain in it at all.
I personally finding all this out would be go for the cheap option .
Fill the sump up with a litre or 2 of more oil and try it out... if it doesnt help .. then your problem is not in the sump area... becuase the oil pick up is submerged in the oil normally .. that is the way chevs are designed... so even if the pick up drops off the pump is still submerged.
Denis
PS Small block should idle around 30-40 psi on idle and normal rule of thumb is for every 1000 revs = 10 psi so if you turning it at 7000 you should see a solid 70 psi oil pressure.
I personally finding all this out would be go for the cheap option .
Fill the sump up with a litre or 2 of more oil and try it out... if it doesnt help .. then your problem is not in the sump area... becuase the oil pick up is submerged in the oil normally .. that is the way chevs are designed... so even if the pick up drops off the pump is still submerged.
Denis
PS Small block should idle around 30-40 psi on idle and normal rule of thumb is for every 1000 revs = 10 psi so if you turning it at 7000 you should see a solid 70 psi oil pressure.
Edited by Lostit, 01 September 2006 - 07:09 PM.
#50
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Posted 01 September 2006 - 10:39 PM
Interesting Denis, Thanks for the info!
I'm reserving my decision on the pump till we get it's pants off and have a good look inside.. If its not nice what we see.. then i'll buy a milodon smallblock pump or something like that...
I've put more oil in the sump, and also tried revving it to "high" revs while stationar, and the oil pressure is rock solid... it's ONLY when there's acceleration forces on the car that it happens! Even after its happened, if you back off teh throttle so the car stars to decelerate.. then no problem the pressure comes back!
My oil pressure sits at 20-25Psi at idle ( Hot) and 64 Psi at any revs up to about 6000 where it starts to climb a little again ( on a dyno run with "cold" oil i saw 84 Psi @ 5500 Rpm!! :shock:
Anyhow, I'm pretty convinced that it's a surge/sump issue.. So that's going to be fixed with the high energy sump, and i'll sus out the pump when i get in there.. I'll have another talk to my engine builder and see his reasons for fitting the bigblock pump!
Cheers!
I'm reserving my decision on the pump till we get it's pants off and have a good look inside.. If its not nice what we see.. then i'll buy a milodon smallblock pump or something like that...
I've put more oil in the sump, and also tried revving it to "high" revs while stationar, and the oil pressure is rock solid... it's ONLY when there's acceleration forces on the car that it happens! Even after its happened, if you back off teh throttle so the car stars to decelerate.. then no problem the pressure comes back!
My oil pressure sits at 20-25Psi at idle ( Hot) and 64 Psi at any revs up to about 6000 where it starts to climb a little again ( on a dyno run with "cold" oil i saw 84 Psi @ 5500 Rpm!! :shock:
Anyhow, I'm pretty convinced that it's a surge/sump issue.. So that's going to be fixed with the high energy sump, and i'll sus out the pump when i get in there.. I'll have another talk to my engine builder and see his reasons for fitting the bigblock pump!
Cheers!
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