My hq is at the shop getting aircon installed, i supplyed him with both under dash and intergrated air setups. I want to measure air temps coming out of the vents so i can insulate the box in the engine bay along with other bits and peices to help the system run more efficently. Since the aircon box sits so close to the engine it doesnt work as well as the underdash one he tells me.
Basically i need a small digital thermometer that i can stick onto the air vent and measure temps to see if what i do has made any difference. Anyone know any shops or online stores that would have what i need?
Thanks
Damien
Where can i buy a small tempreture probe
Started by
_jabba_
, Mar 15 2006 05:09 PM
13 replies to this topic
#2
Dangerous
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Posted 15 March 2006 - 05:24 PM
Dick Smith, Jaycar or Tandy. Can get single units, or ones that measure both temp at the display unit, and remote temp via a temperature probe with a long cable. Most do around -40 to +50 C
#3
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Posted 15 March 2006 - 06:25 PM
Dick Smith, Jaycar or Tandy. Can get single units, or ones that measure both temp at the display unit, and remote temp via a temperature probe with a long cable. Most do around -40 to +50 C q
Yeah....I got mine at Jaycar.
#4
_jabba_
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Posted 15 March 2006 - 08:21 PM
I had a quick look on DSE and couldnt see anything very small, i think jaycar will be the go.
What tempretures would i expect from a aircon that was working well at the vent roughly?
Thanks
Damien
What tempretures would i expect from a aircon that was working well at the vent roughly?
Thanks
Damien
Edited by jabba, 15 March 2006 - 08:22 PM.
#5
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Posted 15 March 2006 - 08:24 PM
You can get multimeters that can measure temperature. Mine does.
#6
_jabba_
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Posted 15 March 2006 - 09:03 PM
Well on jaycar for $20 i can get a digital multimeter that measures tempreture, or for $20-40 i can get a tempreture gauge. Seems the multimeter is the cheapest way to go 
.
.
#7
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Posted 16 March 2006 - 09:16 AM
From my experience, it depends greatly on the fan speed. higher volumes of air blowing through the evaporator will not be as cold at the vents than if the fan is set to a low speed.What tempretures would i expect from a aircon that was working well at the vent roughly?
Thanks
Damien
The LH manual states Torana A/C outlet temps as low as 3C, up to 12C depending on ambient air temperature (15C up to 43C).
My Calais A/C gets down to 9C with fan on low speed, and around 13C with fan on high speed.
#8
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Posted 16 March 2006 - 09:09 PM
I popped into tandy and ended up just getting a $30 duel temp gauge, to impatient to wait for jaycar to post stuff to me 
(and will serve me well in my bedroom once i've finished testing). Tested it out in my maxima and it got down to 6 degree's from a probe i stuffed down the vent at low fan speed. The aircon mate said he would be happy if he got the HQ down to 9 degree's with the intergrated setup, should still feel nicer than 40+ degree heat thats for sure 
.
(and will serve me well in my bedroom once i've finished testing). Tested it out in my maxima and it got down to 6 degree's from a probe i stuffed down the vent at low fan speed. The aircon mate said he would be happy if he got the HQ down to 9 degree's with the intergrated setup, should still feel nicer than 40+ degree heat thats for sure .
Edited by jabba, 16 March 2006 - 09:10 PM.
#9
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Posted 17 March 2006 - 09:34 AM
The local Vet might have a few spares but they will be used ones.
Does that matter?
RACV MAN
Does that matter?
RACV MAN
#10
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Posted 17 March 2006 - 08:24 PM
The HQ fact air setup runs the poast (pilot operated absolute suction throttling) system, which should be the same as in principle fitted to the 6cyl LH torana. These are not simple in operation. Is your system having everything fitted that the fact air setup had?, or just the underbonnet container for the evaporator and high speed blower fan?
If you have the full fact setup, the performance data is stated in the aircon workshop manual and gives the following conditions for doing the test for comparative purposes:
Doors and windows of car closed and vehicle out of direct sunlight.
Engine hood up.
Recirculation mode selected.
Blower on HIGH (IV) speed(many ac shops will �try it on� and quote figures at low fan speeds-the difference is huge)
Engine speed at 2000rpm. (these are fairly standard test conditions for aircon)
Here are the ambient/vent temps(acceptable figures) one should see after 10mins of running the compressor:
16ambient/(3-6)vent
21/(4-7)
27/(5-8)
32/(6-9)
38/(7-10)
43/(9-12)
Note these figures are for stationary(better figures will be seen on the move) and require that a fixed six blade fan or seven blade clutch fan is fitted, later models hx,hj had 12 inch auxiliary electric fans fitted in front of the condenser also, however, these were to improve performance at idle and wont make much difference when doing the test at 2000rpm. Effective underhood cooling is a requirement for this system to work properly and the recommended fans are essential for enough heat transfer, especially at speed or if you have any engine mods which typically will always increase exhaust temps. I have done a lot of measurements here and found that, vent temps, condenser, radiator outlet and exhaust temps drop considerably on my system when the fact clutch fan was refitted for both high and low speed work.
This data is of course if using r12 as a refrigerant, other gases typically don�t perform so well in these setups. The system is different in operation to aftermarket systems. Aftermarket systems have a sensor in the evaporator which disengages the compressor once a predetermined temp is reached, typically 3C, the compressor can be felt engaging and disengaging or �cycling�. The poast system doesn�t operate in this way, it basically controls the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator to maintain a set temp of 3C without disengaging the compressor, the load on the compressor varying with cooling demands. The disadvantages of this being that the compressor is running constantly and even when under partial load is still causing appreciable load to the engine. The advantage is that the air coming out the vents remains at a constant temp and humidity, however, at mild ambients this will see the temp of the cabin get colder and colder � making it necessary to blend air from the heater to keep the interior at a constant 20C or so(hardly efficient). In a cycling system, when the compressor is switched out the system tends to blow warm humid air back into the cabin between cycles�.not comfortable either.
The data ^ will be unobtainable if the recirculation flap on the inlet snorkel hasn�t been installed, as warm air will be drawn from outside, often overlooked when retrofitting fact systems.
Comparison with other vehicles isn�t really relevant, it is important to compare apples with apples here. In newer vehicles, the ac systems have been designed to keep vent temps typically >7C, but one can find they can maintain their low speed temps at higher blower speeds and ambients as well. This is so that occupants near the vents don�t get frozen knee caps etc and so that the possibility of the ac ejecting out any soiled condensation onto someone�s nice white evening gown is brought down to zero. The performance figures quoted ^ are easily obtainable if all the system is in working condition, I have verified them on my system when using r12��..don�t settle for less or be persuaded that 9C is good at 25C ambients just because that is what comes out of a new car.
In relation to insulating the underbonnet box. I have done that to mine, but at the time(~12years ago) didn�t measure a b4 and after temp, can only comment that it didn�t do any harm but certainly wasn�t the answer to getting the vent temps to drop to acceptable levels. I used some insulation for homes, ~1cm of foam + reflective aluminium coating, I�m assuming its got fire retardant built into it, but sure it was never designed to sit close to exhaust manifolds.
If you do decide to insulate yours, then testing it with the aircon on is going to be problematic in getting consistent conditions in which to make a meaningful comparison. It is best to test it with the aircon off�. All the air that enters the cabin using the fan has to go through the evaporator. With the engine at operating temp compare the temp coming out of the evaporator/centre vents/fan assisted with the air coming out of the side vents, (I think I�m correct in saying these aren�t connected to the evaporator on the HQ) the difference between them will tell you how much temp the evaporator is picking up by being in close proximity to the engine. You can then see how much difference any insulation will make. On my vehicle I see about a 2deg difference atm when cruising at 60kmh at 25C ambient. The difference will be higher at higher ambient. You will notice considerable heat soak into the evaporator from the engine after a hot shut down.
For this test ^ to work effectively(and your ac) you must be sure that no water is flowing through the heater core and that the vacuum operated heater valve has been installed in this line, should be no heat on the heater hoses at the heater inlet. Also, check that the bonnet is sealed effectively at the rear and doesn�t let any air pass directly into the plenum chamber. You can test this while you drive along by sticking a thermometer in the plenum chamber, if it goes higher than ambient � you have a leaky bonnet seal, or just rev the motor while stationary and feel for any air blown through by the engine fan.
Hope that gives you more background for your setup.
If you have the full fact setup, the performance data is stated in the aircon workshop manual and gives the following conditions for doing the test for comparative purposes:
Doors and windows of car closed and vehicle out of direct sunlight.
Engine hood up.
Recirculation mode selected.
Blower on HIGH (IV) speed(many ac shops will �try it on� and quote figures at low fan speeds-the difference is huge)
Engine speed at 2000rpm. (these are fairly standard test conditions for aircon)
Here are the ambient/vent temps(acceptable figures) one should see after 10mins of running the compressor:
16ambient/(3-6)vent
21/(4-7)
27/(5-8)
32/(6-9)
38/(7-10)
43/(9-12)
Note these figures are for stationary(better figures will be seen on the move) and require that a fixed six blade fan or seven blade clutch fan is fitted, later models hx,hj had 12 inch auxiliary electric fans fitted in front of the condenser also, however, these were to improve performance at idle and wont make much difference when doing the test at 2000rpm. Effective underhood cooling is a requirement for this system to work properly and the recommended fans are essential for enough heat transfer, especially at speed or if you have any engine mods which typically will always increase exhaust temps. I have done a lot of measurements here and found that, vent temps, condenser, radiator outlet and exhaust temps drop considerably on my system when the fact clutch fan was refitted for both high and low speed work.
This data is of course if using r12 as a refrigerant, other gases typically don�t perform so well in these setups. The system is different in operation to aftermarket systems. Aftermarket systems have a sensor in the evaporator which disengages the compressor once a predetermined temp is reached, typically 3C, the compressor can be felt engaging and disengaging or �cycling�. The poast system doesn�t operate in this way, it basically controls the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator to maintain a set temp of 3C without disengaging the compressor, the load on the compressor varying with cooling demands. The disadvantages of this being that the compressor is running constantly and even when under partial load is still causing appreciable load to the engine. The advantage is that the air coming out the vents remains at a constant temp and humidity, however, at mild ambients this will see the temp of the cabin get colder and colder � making it necessary to blend air from the heater to keep the interior at a constant 20C or so(hardly efficient). In a cycling system, when the compressor is switched out the system tends to blow warm humid air back into the cabin between cycles�.not comfortable either.
The data ^ will be unobtainable if the recirculation flap on the inlet snorkel hasn�t been installed, as warm air will be drawn from outside, often overlooked when retrofitting fact systems.
Comparison with other vehicles isn�t really relevant, it is important to compare apples with apples here. In newer vehicles, the ac systems have been designed to keep vent temps typically >7C, but one can find they can maintain their low speed temps at higher blower speeds and ambients as well. This is so that occupants near the vents don�t get frozen knee caps etc and so that the possibility of the ac ejecting out any soiled condensation onto someone�s nice white evening gown is brought down to zero. The performance figures quoted ^ are easily obtainable if all the system is in working condition, I have verified them on my system when using r12��..don�t settle for less or be persuaded that 9C is good at 25C ambients just because that is what comes out of a new car.
In relation to insulating the underbonnet box. I have done that to mine, but at the time(~12years ago) didn�t measure a b4 and after temp, can only comment that it didn�t do any harm but certainly wasn�t the answer to getting the vent temps to drop to acceptable levels. I used some insulation for homes, ~1cm of foam + reflective aluminium coating, I�m assuming its got fire retardant built into it, but sure it was never designed to sit close to exhaust manifolds.
If you do decide to insulate yours, then testing it with the aircon on is going to be problematic in getting consistent conditions in which to make a meaningful comparison. It is best to test it with the aircon off�. All the air that enters the cabin using the fan has to go through the evaporator. With the engine at operating temp compare the temp coming out of the evaporator/centre vents/fan assisted with the air coming out of the side vents, (I think I�m correct in saying these aren�t connected to the evaporator on the HQ) the difference between them will tell you how much temp the evaporator is picking up by being in close proximity to the engine. You can then see how much difference any insulation will make. On my vehicle I see about a 2deg difference atm when cruising at 60kmh at 25C ambient. The difference will be higher at higher ambient. You will notice considerable heat soak into the evaporator from the engine after a hot shut down.
For this test ^ to work effectively(and your ac) you must be sure that no water is flowing through the heater core and that the vacuum operated heater valve has been installed in this line, should be no heat on the heater hoses at the heater inlet. Also, check that the bonnet is sealed effectively at the rear and doesn�t let any air pass directly into the plenum chamber. You can test this while you drive along by sticking a thermometer in the plenum chamber, if it goes higher than ambient � you have a leaky bonnet seal, or just rev the motor while stationary and feel for any air blown through by the engine fan.
Hope that gives you more background for your setup.
#11
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Posted 19 March 2006 - 12:26 PM
wow thats a huge amount of information, i wont reply to all of that because that would take too long but thank you . Ill try and keep that all in mind 
.
Im using the full factory heater/evaporater box inside and out, but they will be making ducting to feed the two side dash vents. Ill be blocking off the 'fresh air' vents in the plenum all together. I didnt think of testing the setup without the aircon going, thats a great idea and should give more accurate results for heatsoak.
The setup atm is 1 elec fan on the radiator and 1 elec fan on the condenser. What i think im going to do is after its going is install a second fan on the condenser which fits perfectly and covers it completely. I think ill have to replace the radiator fan with something like a falcon thermo fan setup to keep everything cool.
Damien
. Ill try and keep that all in mind .Im using the full factory heater/evaporater box inside and out, but they will be making ducting to feed the two side dash vents. Ill be blocking off the 'fresh air' vents in the plenum all together. I didnt think of testing the setup without the aircon going, thats a great idea and should give more accurate results for heatsoak.
The setup atm is 1 elec fan on the radiator and 1 elec fan on the condenser. What i think im going to do is after its going is install a second fan on the condenser which fits perfectly and covers it completely. I think ill have to replace the radiator fan with something like a falcon thermo fan setup to keep everything cool.
Damien
Edited by jabba, 19 March 2006 - 12:35 PM.
#12
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 19 March 2006 - 03:03 PM
Good to hear what you are doing, are all the mechanicals factory?
Id give careful consideration to blocking of the side vents from fresh air.
The advantage obviously is to be able to get fan forced refrig air and heater air onto ones face and if you block the inlets at the plenum youll get no outside air leakage into the cabin at speed(we all know how they leak)
Disadvantage is that these vents alone will keep you comfortable when moving (up to a certain temp anyway)and if you have air routed through the evaporator it will come out these vents hotter(due to placement of evaporator as mentioned ^), which basically means youll end up needing to use the aircon more often than if they were kept unblocked(hope that makes some sense)
Probably all up its a plus, sounds like there is enough room in the HQ to do all that, too tight in a torry.
Id give careful consideration to blocking of the side vents from fresh air.
The advantage obviously is to be able to get fan forced refrig air and heater air onto ones face and if you block the inlets at the plenum youll get no outside air leakage into the cabin at speed(we all know how they leak)
Disadvantage is that these vents alone will keep you comfortable when moving (up to a certain temp anyway)and if you have air routed through the evaporator it will come out these vents hotter(due to placement of evaporator as mentioned ^), which basically means youll end up needing to use the aircon more often than if they were kept unblocked(hope that makes some sense)
Probably all up its a plus, sounds like there is enough room in the HQ to do all that, too tight in a torry.
#13
_jabba_
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Posted 19 March 2006 - 05:29 PM
Nah, only factory things im using is the heater/evaporater box, i bought a complete aircon setup off ebay for under the dash so im using all of its components exept the evaporater, it has a small silver compressor and a huge condenser that covers the front side of the radiator completely. I've collected the evap/heater box and switch panel with wiring and hoses over the last year or so.
Basically just trying to set it all up as per the HQ statesman as best i can, ill probably leave the fresh air ports until i can go look at my dads stato again at Easter. On his statesman there are no fresh air ports, theres metal plates blocking atleast the drivers side (the passenger side fresh air may be ducted straight into the evap box) and im not sure if there is a freshair/recycle option for them?? His car is completely stock and un restored in perfect nic.
I think your right, i would have to use the aircon more often than not if i remove the fresh air all together but then again im not sure if id even them once i have aircon. I know when doing long trips i can point the side vents to blow across the car door and it keeps the air fresh inside but when the aircon goes in ill loose that function anyway and i dont use the huge floor vent as you just get blown away haha.
Basically just trying to set it all up as per the HQ statesman as best i can, ill probably leave the fresh air ports until i can go look at my dads stato again at Easter. On his statesman there are no fresh air ports, theres metal plates blocking atleast the drivers side (the passenger side fresh air may be ducted straight into the evap box) and im not sure if there is a freshair/recycle option for them?? His car is completely stock and un restored in perfect nic.
I think your right, i would have to use the aircon more often than not if i remove the fresh air all together but then again im not sure if id even them once i have aircon. I know when doing long trips i can point the side vents to blow across the car door and it keeps the air fresh inside but when the aircon goes in ill loose that function anyway and i dont use the huge floor vent as you just get blown away haha.
Edited by jabba, 19 March 2006 - 05:41 PM.
#14
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Posted 20 March 2006 - 04:10 PM
Here's where there upto now, hopefully it will be finished tomorrow. The pipes at the condenser end hasnt been terminated yet but everything is mounted in there, the heater/evap box will have some of that uglyness removed from the front of it hopefully before its done.
I also found that clark rubber make an adheasive stickon heatshilding for about $36 p/m so ill be getting some of that once this is all setup.
I also found that clark rubber make an adheasive stickon heatshilding for about $36 p/m so ill be getting some of that once this is all setup.
Edited by jabba, 20 March 2006 - 04:14 PM.
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