36 replies to this topic

[Evan]

This old chestnut.
Cant help u on the numbers produced.
This topic will turn into a fight over how far an a9x can be changed before its not an a9x. Previously i think the consensus was that many had been smashed into the wall, cut and shut and modified. If done by someone famous, it still kinda held its integrity.


Ev.

[76lxhatch]

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']450??? 100 hatchs 350 sedans and 30 race cars 2 lightweight shells and how many spare shells[/quote]
That doesn't sound quite right to begin with but not really relevant to your questions anyway...

Here are some of my opinions (opinions, remember)

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']however not all racers could afford to spend $ on a new A9X race shell so took an old car and upgraded it to A9X spec and had the approrate CAMS log book call it a A9X. but is it an A9X?[/quote]
No, A9X is a factory option package only available on new LX SLR5000 or 5L SS cars, not available separately (under that label at least). Same spec, doesn't use the option code

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']Also I doubt any of serviving race cars still have orignal engine blocks in them.[/quote]
A non-original car may still be genuine

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']Next: Some racers brought spare shells to allow for race damage, so is reshelled car a A9X...if shell is new A9X shell, or just any old shell. or shell is brought as a part.

Or does the old damaged shell still carry the status of being an A9X, I know of a car that was "written off" in practise at Bathurst, car was stripped of anything useful and shell dumped, local farmer drags shell to shed and leaves it there for next 20 odd years finally car is brought and restored back to racing condition and can now be seen on circuits in NZ, is it still an A9X[/quote]
The original car might still be genuine even if it has been re-shelled, although very far from original. However a new car built from the shell cannot be genuine in my view.

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']Harry Firth had a Black Hatchback SS which was modified and developed, these changes were then put into production as the A9X so is Harrys Prototype SS really A9X No1.[/quote]
Again splitting hairs but that didn't carry factory option code A9X so isn't one. It may be more valuable due to rarity etc but isn't actually an A9X

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']Just going even more off the beaten track were the 30 race shells really A9Xes at all as they were sold as a car parts not as a complete production car.[/quote]
Complete enough to be called a new car, and they carried the option code

[quote name='cruiza' post='398291' date='May 13 2009, 04:46 PM']Heres another thought when is a Reshelled numbers matching complete with all the right bits A9X stop being an A9X... because is is illegal to reshell... but it isn't illegal to reshell a car in NZ or at least it wasn't; as long as not done as part of some scheme to commit fraud...hmmmm could you then take a wrecked rusted rare car to NZ reshell it restore it regisitar it then ship it back to Ozzie as rare clasic car and it would be legal??? and legitamite.[/quote]
Yes I'm pretty sure there is no issue with re-shelling here. This question is more of a 'which part constitutes the original car?'. I think you can replace every single piece of a car over time and it is still genuine if they are repairs, rebuilds, etc. But you can't just take another car and add tags. My opinion is that re-shelling a rare car to repair it while keeping as much of the original as possible still makes it genuine. However it is kind of like having the wrong engine; its no longer original, its modified.


Make of that what you will!

[TerrA LX]

QUOTE (cruiza @ May 13 2009, 04:46 PM) *
however not all racers could afford to spend $ on a new A9X race shell so took an old car and upgraded it to A9X spec and had the approrate CAMS log book call it a A9X. but is it an A9X?

No, A9X is a factory option package only available on new LX SLR5000 or 5L SS cars, not available separately (under that label at least). Same spec, doesn't use the option code

No rule prevented anyone from screwing a bonnet scoop on and welding a floor patch in (to install a cut down HZ diff) an L34 and entering it as an A9X.

[REDA9X]

405 road cars 52 spare shells.

Don't believe everything you read, Harrys car is not at PC's museum and it was NEVER raced at all. The real owner of the car was less than impressed when he found out PC was displaying a car and claiming it is this car, and last time I spoke to him he was considering taking action, along with the sedan he has displayed there, not what it is displayed as.

The 33 rolling shells were an almost complete car that had all the road going A9X mods and then some. A car upgraded to A9X specs is not an A9X, though a race car upgraded is considered for the purposes of racing to be an A9X. No four door A9X race body shells were made in the same fashion as the race hatches, they were replacement shells only, requiring mods to become an A9X.

[Toranavista]

A car would be deemed an A9X once it had been authenticated. This may involve the interpretation of recognized �experts� or organizations.

This overcomes the problem of genuine cars with lost tags or damaged/missing chassis numbers. In addition there is the debate over PSN. One could argue that without a PSN a car has never been produced so impossible to be anything other than a spare part. It�s all up to interpretation, as even different organizations will have different criteria for accepting the authenticity of a vehicle.

[76lxhatch]

No rule prevented anyone from screwing a bonnet scoop on and welding a floor patch in (to install a cut down HZ diff) an L34 and entering it as an A9X.

My opinion is that to be a 'genuine' A9X it would have to have that option direct from Holden. I guess that means CAMS was happy to accept 'equivalent' A9Xs...?

Again not to say that those cars aren't collectable or valuable (some may be more so), just that they aren't a genuine A9X in my opinion.

[GML-31]

I actually own a NASCO shelled car but I just call it a white LH to save arguments...

[GML-31]

pre gmp&a

[REDA9X]

If someone bought a race shell and built it into a road car, it's exactly that, an A9X race shell built as a road car, and there are a few out there. It is considered an A9X by the A9X club. A shell with NASCO or GMP&A does not automatically make it an A9X or a race shell, it's a replacement shell, thats it. There is a very big difference between a GMP&A A9X shell and a GMP&A LX Torana shell. Nasco is pre LX and prior to the A9X Holden did not build shells specifically for racing. Just a little bit of extra trivia, the last race shell built by Holden was Peter Brocks VR he used towards the end of 1996 and through 1997. After that the shells were just replacement shells.

[REDA9X]

Certain people like to think they have another famous car or 2 they don't have also

[TerrA LX]

My opinion is that to be a 'genuine' A9X it would have to have that option direct from Holden. I guess that means CAMS was happy to accept 'equivalent' A9Xs...?

Well the whole point of Group C racing and making a production car was so you could upgrade/option/build, call it what you will, build a race car, in this case it was called an A9X, just stating fact, not looking to shoot anyone.

No one is saying that you could turn a Gpak into a car like Reds A9X.

Edited by ALX76, 13 May 2009 - 11:32 PM.

[76lxhatch]

Which point calls into question the definition of what constitutes an A9X. Now I'm in over my head...

[REDA9X]

I would be extremely interested to see that. I know exactly how many shells were delivered to HDT and where they all went to and I have never heard this story before now.

[TerrA LX]

Which point calls into question the definition of what constitutes an A9X. Now I'm in over my head...

If you go by CAMS rules it seems to be a Bonnet scoop and 4WD.

[REDA9X]

I know the car, I know where it came from and the issues around it. The big problem with this one is the 2 stories about the tag on the car and the fact that the tag is plastic. The thing with people who tell stories is they forget who they tell and so the story changes, the truth always stays the same.

The story about the shell being crashed and dumped is true, it's just an issue of whether this is in fact that shell or not.

[slr5640]

Interesting story about the plastic tag.
I have spoken to the guy who has owned the 78 05 hatch.
His car( the 78 car ) and the no.76 Harvey hatch both were sent to the Bathurst museum together.
What the owners of the cars did was remove the tags and make a plastic copy as insurance in case the tags were pinched.
The tag from the Harvey car was in fact stolen whilst on display .
Probably adding too much information here!!
The original tags would have been passed on to the purchaser when sold I would hope!