Good luck Kaz with red light cameras in sa they are set up to raise revenue and for no other reason.In tassy and wa they are a lot more passive.In sa if you are travelling at say 60kph in a semi for instance add reaction time plus distance that a semi has to pull up in legally and you are pinged by 1.3 seconds.If you mention that as your excuse you are told that you should anticipate the changing of the lights.So along with everything else us professional drivers have to put up with we have to be psycic also.So good luck Kaz.I am fighting a speeding fine at the moment in court and the copper is lying through his teeth.The dissapointing thing is i have known him since he was a snotty nose little kid and the only thing thats changed is now he uses a hanky or maybe sleeve.I thought police stood for truth and justice but this guy s only interested in getting his quota.
who has challenged a speeding fine or red light fine
Started by
_kaz from adelaide_
, Aug 31 2009 05:50 PM
72 replies to this topic
#27
lxsstorana
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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:40 PM
I think the big question here is do you have grounds to challenge the fine.
There are plenty of fines that have been improperly issued (especially by computers and camera's) but you need a defence to prove that.
Is the camera that photographed you operating correcting? authorised to be at that location? being maintained as per State Government SOP'S? etc, etc.
Might be worth consulting a solicitor who specialises in traffic matters if you are running low on points (but they're not cheap).
Hope it works out.
Mick.
There are plenty of fines that have been improperly issued (especially by computers and camera's) but you need a defence to prove that.
Is the camera that photographed you operating correcting? authorised to be at that location? being maintained as per State Government SOP'S? etc, etc.
Might be worth consulting a solicitor who specialises in traffic matters if you are running low on points (but they're not cheap).
Hope it works out.
Mick.
#28
_tyre fryer_
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 01:40 AM
Really? even though ADR's allow for any vehicle's speedo to read up to 10% inaccurate, maybe I'll ask holden to pay my speeding fine then.
In SA, if you can prove that your car's speedo isn't reading properly (this can be done through the RAA I believe). Will the fine be wavered?
No sorry it won't fryer.
#29
_kaz from adelaide_
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 10:23 AM
Interesting experiences and great tips, thanks heaps all.
I have requested the photo.
I was travelling thru the pedestrian Xing (b4 Kensington rd, out front of the college) on Portrush Rd.
I was in the right hand lane trying to get into the left to turn left at Kensi Rd. There was a dbl trailer semi in the left lane which I was equal to the back 1/4 of his trailer. I was allmost at a stop, probably 5kms roling thru the ped Xing, watching my mirrors as I continued slowly forward I realised the damn semi was going nowhere fast, quickly looked up to see the kensi road lights had just changed and the semi was stopping for those lights. At this point I had no vision of the pedestrian lights as I was going thru. So this must have put me in the firing line of the camera, or they got the back end of the semi and I am coping it as well. The lights were green when I entered the intersection, but due to my delay in getting thru I been done.
I will have a better idea when I get the pic.
I am damn sick to death of black and white govermnent policies, it is that grey area that we live in not the impossible black and white.
Latest polls says us adeladiens are the worst for tailgating, well with the ridiculous conjestion they have caused with randon 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 kms speed limits what the hell do they expect. AND dont get me started on the road workd. DAMN ADELAIDE THE ROAD WORK STATE. For such a little town with no room for expanding the city roads there was not much forsight. TOSSERS.
Ahhhhhhh, I feel better now.
XXKAZXX
I have requested the photo.
I was travelling thru the pedestrian Xing (b4 Kensington rd, out front of the college) on Portrush Rd.
I was in the right hand lane trying to get into the left to turn left at Kensi Rd. There was a dbl trailer semi in the left lane which I was equal to the back 1/4 of his trailer. I was allmost at a stop, probably 5kms roling thru the ped Xing, watching my mirrors as I continued slowly forward I realised the damn semi was going nowhere fast, quickly looked up to see the kensi road lights had just changed and the semi was stopping for those lights. At this point I had no vision of the pedestrian lights as I was going thru. So this must have put me in the firing line of the camera, or they got the back end of the semi and I am coping it as well. The lights were green when I entered the intersection, but due to my delay in getting thru I been done.
I will have a better idea when I get the pic.
I am damn sick to death of black and white govermnent policies, it is that grey area that we live in not the impossible black and white.
Latest polls says us adeladiens are the worst for tailgating, well with the ridiculous conjestion they have caused with randon 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 kms speed limits what the hell do they expect. AND dont get me started on the road workd. DAMN ADELAIDE THE ROAD WORK STATE. For such a little town with no room for expanding the city roads there was not much forsight. TOSSERS.
Ahhhhhhh, I feel better now.
XXKAZXX
#30
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 12:01 PM
Revenue Raising, I get sick to death hearing that old war cry. My argument to those famous two words, and I've said this to Barristers in court is that if, I PERSONALLY HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO MAKE YOU COMMIT AN OFFENCE THEN THAT IS WHAT I CLASS REVENUE RAISING. If YOU commit an offence due to your own ignorance then bad luck, cop it sweet. You know I'm still amazed at how many people buy cars without brake pedals. Buggered if I know how they slow down so I guess it must be my fault.
#31
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 03:32 PM
It is an interesting topic Kaz and I hope it works out for you.
I don't know how S.A. operate their speed and light camera's but I know NSW stuff quite well.
The sensors for red light camera's (in NSW) are located before the intersection (I would imagine other states would do the same but that would be to easy). Anyway, if you enter the intersection with a green light or amber light there is no problem, but big problem with a red light.
Worth paying the fee to get a photograph and see what happened.
I don't know how S.A. operate their speed and light camera's but I know NSW stuff quite well.
The sensors for red light camera's (in NSW) are located before the intersection (I would imagine other states would do the same but that would be to easy). Anyway, if you enter the intersection with a green light or amber light there is no problem, but big problem with a red light.
Worth paying the fee to get a photograph and see what happened.
#32
enderwigginau
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 04:18 PM
Mick might agree with me now you've explained how you got done Kaz -
Was the rear axle of the truck into the intersection after you?
This may have been the trigger for the camera.
Grant..
Was the rear axle of the truck into the intersection after you?
This may have been the trigger for the camera.
Grant..
#33
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Posted 05 September 2009 - 04:33 PM
Yep, the piccy will tell the story.
UNFORTUNATELY ! ! ! I could have shot infront of the semi, which in turn would have cut him off, but that would not have mattered to him as the damn kensi rd lights had changed.
In this day of technology they should b able 2 email pics 2 u, but then again I shouldn't complain as there was no request for money on the pic request form. Maybe they know they will win anyway.
Big question is will I recieve pic B4 the fine is due on the 17th ? ? They specifically state that there will not be an extension granted to the fine because a pic has been requested.
Just something else to put onto the to do list. Honestly it is not high priority.
XXKAZXX
UNFORTUNATELY ! ! ! I could have shot infront of the semi, which in turn would have cut him off, but that would not have mattered to him as the damn kensi rd lights had changed.
In this day of technology they should b able 2 email pics 2 u, but then again I shouldn't complain as there was no request for money on the pic request form. Maybe they know they will win anyway.
Big question is will I recieve pic B4 the fine is due on the 17th ? ? They specifically state that there will not be an extension granted to the fine because a pic has been requested.
Just something else to put onto the to do list. Honestly it is not high priority.
XXKAZXX
#34
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Posted 06 September 2009 - 12:15 AM
Your right RUTS. Do the crime then expect to pay the fine.
As my lovely wife (bless her cotton socks) would say, "just don't speed!"
Problem is, it is not always black and white and machines do not take into account external influencing factors.
Speed cameras have been known to issue fines to light poles...go figure? So what proves they have it right in EVERY other case.
Cops love to tell us they are human too. It is OK for them to make mistake just like Joe average. So when we are pulled over for a reason, the Cop may exercise his disgression (spelling?) and issue a warning. But a machine cannot.
Roads that were perfectly safe for decades at 60km/hr are now unfit for it anymore? Now we have to do 50km/h on 60-70% of our metro roads and they are all confusing due to lack of signage that leads to road rage because the locals may know it is 60km/hr but the new guy is shit scared to go over 50km/hr as he has not seen a sign as he enters the new road and normally will not for some distance.
All this technology to make our roads safer, so much money spent that makes so much more but where does this money go? Can someone provide this answer? and prove it?
If it was proven that it was injected into the roads to make travel safe and more expedient considering the choking snail system we have. I think the term "revenue raising" would be re-considered.
So basically as long as it is grey and no one can prove where the money goes, it will always be considered as revenue raising.
PS. It has gotten to the point that I have to continuously take my eyes off the road to check my speed up hill (remember road rage issue) and down hill (remember revenue raising issue). Does this make me a safer driver? Should I not keep my eyes on the road as all good drives are instructed?
I now use my cruise control in the city whenever I am not starting/stopping just so I can keep my eyes on the road as I should. Pity the torana like most cars, does not have cruise control
As my lovely wife (bless her cotton socks) would say, "just don't speed!"
Problem is, it is not always black and white and machines do not take into account external influencing factors.
Speed cameras have been known to issue fines to light poles...go figure? So what proves they have it right in EVERY other case.
Cops love to tell us they are human too. It is OK for them to make mistake just like Joe average. So when we are pulled over for a reason, the Cop may exercise his disgression (spelling?) and issue a warning. But a machine cannot.
Roads that were perfectly safe for decades at 60km/hr are now unfit for it anymore? Now we have to do 50km/h on 60-70% of our metro roads and they are all confusing due to lack of signage that leads to road rage because the locals may know it is 60km/hr but the new guy is shit scared to go over 50km/hr as he has not seen a sign as he enters the new road and normally will not for some distance.
All this technology to make our roads safer, so much money spent that makes so much more but where does this money go? Can someone provide this answer? and prove it?
If it was proven that it was injected into the roads to make travel safe and more expedient considering the choking snail system we have. I think the term "revenue raising" would be re-considered.
So basically as long as it is grey and no one can prove where the money goes, it will always be considered as revenue raising.
PS. It has gotten to the point that I have to continuously take my eyes off the road to check my speed up hill (remember road rage issue) and down hill (remember revenue raising issue). Does this make me a safer driver? Should I not keep my eyes on the road as all good drives are instructed?
I now use my cruise control in the city whenever I am not starting/stopping just so I can keep my eyes on the road as I should. Pity the torana like most cars, does not have cruise control
#35
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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:51 AM
got to agree with ruts ,...over the last 10 years i have driven over 2 million kms , mostly in the country but 50 - 60 a day in the city. i have been pinged twice in that time and came to the realization that we are stuck with the speed zones we have to drive in.
i bought myself a little gps unit which will give you your speed at any given time. i also use it to check the speedo in my other cars. when i checked the merc. originally the speedo was reading 4 kph fast , when i put taller tyres on it it read 4 kph slow.
sit on or just under the relevant limits and you wont have that particular pressure to worry about and can concentrate on the rest of the drive.
the gps unit can be re-set for every trip you make and can give you time spent moving , at rest , overall trip time , ave. speed , max speed on that trip.....and they dont cost a motsa !
kaz as far as the red light ones go , well i think you will be pushing a volvo(shit) up hill , the two strikes for the rlc's are past the white stop line. i know daz went to court over a similar one with two vehicles in the photo for speeding, the judge agreed that either could have been speeding so he halved daz's fine ! pensioner and all , but still took away the point !!
laz
i bought myself a little gps unit which will give you your speed at any given time. i also use it to check the speedo in my other cars. when i checked the merc. originally the speedo was reading 4 kph fast , when i put taller tyres on it it read 4 kph slow.
sit on or just under the relevant limits and you wont have that particular pressure to worry about and can concentrate on the rest of the drive.
the gps unit can be re-set for every trip you make and can give you time spent moving , at rest , overall trip time , ave. speed , max speed on that trip.....and they dont cost a motsa !
kaz as far as the red light ones go , well i think you will be pushing a volvo(shit) up hill , the two strikes for the rlc's are past the white stop line. i know daz went to court over a similar one with two vehicles in the photo for speeding, the judge agreed that either could have been speeding so he halved daz's fine ! pensioner and all , but still took away the point !!
laz
#36
eyepeeler
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Posted 06 September 2009 - 06:39 PM
*In victoria you can get off a speeding fine issued if:*
- The speed you were doing was less than 10km over the posted limit
- you have had a clean record for 3years
All you have to do is write a letter to them saying, I was in the wrong and wont do it again..yad yad yad. Yes I have used this method, old man did too. Might be a little loop hole worth checking for other states.
jim
My wife used that one, we got done at night in an area unfamiliar to us down in Queenscliff Victoria. Was only 2km over the limit, wrote in and asked for a warning and they gave my wife the warning instead of the fine as she has never had a fine.
#37
Tiny
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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:11 PM
I Have to agree with Ruts to a large degree... If you do the crime.. do the time...
I know i'll get pinged one day.. and i'll have no right to whinge and bitch because i know i've gotten away with it at times...
I also wondered about the 10% accurace ADR situation, and i was told that Yep.. ADR says 10%.. but it's on YOUR head to ensure that your car is roadworthy, and that means callibrated if that's what you require.
From what i've found... Police WONT hassle you for those few Kms over the limit that could be attributed to a 10% out speedo ( or tyre variations within reason). but if your doing 20 klicks over the limit.. expect to get slapped!
Unfortunately the ease that technology has brought to enforcing these black and white laws has made cameras prevalent, and they only know what theyre programmed to know... Yep.. your over the limit.. or Yep.. you broke the line after the lights changed.
Life is not so black and white.. and i think if you could PROVE beyond doubt that you would have been cleaned up by a truck HAD you have stopped then you may have a case.. But i think the reply would be: "Why were you going fast enough NOT to be able to stop on the orange - in the first place"... *shakes head*... screwed either way!
Best of luck with it Kaz.. Your doing the right thing! Get informed, check it all out and do your best!
Cheers!
I know i'll get pinged one day.. and i'll have no right to whinge and bitch because i know i've gotten away with it at times...
I also wondered about the 10% accurace ADR situation, and i was told that Yep.. ADR says 10%.. but it's on YOUR head to ensure that your car is roadworthy, and that means callibrated if that's what you require.
From what i've found... Police WONT hassle you for those few Kms over the limit that could be attributed to a 10% out speedo ( or tyre variations within reason). but if your doing 20 klicks over the limit.. expect to get slapped!
Unfortunately the ease that technology has brought to enforcing these black and white laws has made cameras prevalent, and they only know what theyre programmed to know... Yep.. your over the limit.. or Yep.. you broke the line after the lights changed.
Life is not so black and white.. and i think if you could PROVE beyond doubt that you would have been cleaned up by a truck HAD you have stopped then you may have a case.. But i think the reply would be: "Why were you going fast enough NOT to be able to stop on the orange - in the first place"... *shakes head*... screwed either way!
Best of luck with it Kaz.. Your doing the right thing! Get informed, check it all out and do your best!
Cheers!
#38
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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:03 PM
The camera operators/calibrators etc can be summonsed to court to give evidence for the prosecution if the matter is contested. That means a trial would be inevitable. They will give evidence that the devices were operting and had been operated correctly at the time as per guidelines. You can challenge their evidence if you think they are incorrect but you will need evidence to back up your claims. i.e. you must prove the "holes" in their evidence somehow with your evidence. You will therefore need to prove the camera or device is faulty or being operated incorrectly or was not a device as approved by regulations etc etc. As I have said, on the face of it, it appears simple but in reality these prosecutions are technical in nature and difficult to get ones head around. 
#39
_kaz from adelaide_
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Posted 10 September 2009 - 08:02 PM
Heres my pic, very swift of them.
The 1st pic is 1/2 second into red, I am travelling at 26kms.
2nd pic my indicator is on.
Its alot clearer if u zoom in, there are fold marks thru both pics. Very dark pics for 9.08 am.
Hubby say challenge it.
XXKAZXX
The 1st pic is 1/2 second into red, I am travelling at 26kms.
2nd pic my indicator is on.
Its alot clearer if u zoom in, there are fold marks thru both pics. Very dark pics for 9.08 am.
Hubby say challenge it.
XXKAZXX
#40
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Posted 10 September 2009 - 10:36 PM
Kaz what do you intend to run as your defence?
#41
_kaz from adelaide_
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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:36 AM
Kaz what do you intend to run as your defence?
I will answer that when I have more time tonight and once I have a good look at the intersection.
XXKAZXX
#42
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Posted 11 September 2009 - 08:40 PM
I'd say it would be very dark because it's prbably Infra Red Cameras!
Best of luck with it Kaz!
Best of luck with it Kaz!
#43
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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:00 PM
I challenged a speeding fine once......
and lost. dont bother,just pay the bloody fine ! If your in a co. car at least you dont lose your points, just costs you more.
and lost. dont bother,just pay the bloody fine ! If your in a co. car at least you dont lose your points, just costs you more.
#44
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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:04 PM
i fought the Law and the law won "ALL 3 TIMES" but good luck Kaz 
#45
enderwigginau
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Posted 16 September 2009 - 01:29 PM
In NSW if you can't prove who was driving, the company director cops the points............ 
Interested to know your defence too.
It looks fairly cut and dried.......the light is red, and you have just crossed the threshold.........
Is there a set of lights on the other side facing your way?
Grant..
Interested to know your defence too.
It looks fairly cut and dried.......the light is red, and you have just crossed the threshold.........
Is there a set of lights on the other side facing your way?
Grant..
#46
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Posted 16 September 2009 - 01:43 PM
Good luck but from the pics I can't see how you would challenge it.
Hopefully you find something helpful when you check out the intersection.
Hopefully you find something helpful when you check out the intersection.
#47
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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:24 PM
It is largely unknown, for good reason, that if you have a clean driving record for 10 years you can write a letter to the authority saying it was a slip up and they will let you off. They do realise that everyone makes mistakes every now and then.
I did this, I reminded them of my clean record, explained that hidden speed cameras had been banned a few weeks after I was caught - this probably had some pull.
I did mention I understood what I did was wrong and at the time I didn't realise I was doing much over the limit as I had just gotten off the freeway, was driving on a deserted 6 lane road in dry conditions (told them to check the picture) in a recent model car that was mechanically A1.
They let me off.
s
I did this, I reminded them of my clean record, explained that hidden speed cameras had been banned a few weeks after I was caught - this probably had some pull.
I did mention I understood what I did was wrong and at the time I didn't realise I was doing much over the limit as I had just gotten off the freeway, was driving on a deserted 6 lane road in dry conditions (told them to check the picture) in a recent model car that was mechanically A1.
They let me off.
s
#48
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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:27 PM
Bugga, does not look good.
As asked above, are there any other lights apart from the left hansd side as the truck may have blocked your view?
Was the Amber not working on the RHS if there were lights.
Good luck?
As asked above, are there any other lights apart from the left hansd side as the truck may have blocked your view?
Was the Amber not working on the RHS if there were lights.
Good luck?
#49
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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:41 PM
to me it looks like you were both travelling at the same speed, as there is not much difference in the distance between you and the semi in both photos... And if you were travelling at 26km/hr then in that half second you would have travelled just under 4m, putting you just before or right on the line at the instant it went red....
#50
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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:14 PM
mr sheen ,clear paint or polycarbonate plate covers
the idea is it blurs the camera
and cant be seen by regular police
the plate covers are banned here in NSW and I heard the clear paint, hairspray, etc. is myth our cameras still pick them up.
s
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