Hey guys... was just wondering, since LPG has a higher octane, cheaper, less pollution why dont more people use it in a performance sense?
I know the old LPG systems were pretty rubbish... especially the duel fuel setups. but nowdays with Vapour injection and the even better liquid injection you can make even more power then with petrol.
I have a Vapour injection system on my Turbo 2.3L 4cyl Gemini and I think its great, I also got a Complete Stock Gem with the stock 1.6L motor and the Turbo Gem is cheaper to run per 100ks and it goes a hell of alot faster. The guys who I do all my gas stuff with (RAGE Racing) say they build their N/A engines with 13:1 compression and their Turbo ones with 11:1 comp so there is still good power off boost.
But yea im just wondering as im looking to put a Liquid Injection system on the Torana, But Gas seems to be going up in price (saw it for 70c the other day!, has jumped from 50c in the last few months wtf) And I just wanna check im not just getting sucked in by all the great stuff the gas installer keeps telling me... But yea like I said im happy with my setup on the gem...
Your Opinions On LPG
Started by
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, Mar 03 2010 11:01 PM
44 replies to this topic
#2
_niterida_
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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:22 PM
I believe the tariffs are slowly going to be going up on LPG so it could end up being no cheaper or even more expensive to run.
From my own research the cost benefits of running a good injection system are outweighed by the cost of the installation in the first place. And some one on here also rightly pointed out that if you weigh up the cost of going to a normal dual fuel system aginst an injection system then you would almost never recover the extra $2000 (or whatever the price difference is) since the savings in economy between injected and normal systems is not that great.
So the only reason to go to a proper injection system is performance and you can get a lot of petrol performance for the cost of an injected LPG system.
its a bit of a catch 22 - if more people bought injected systems the price would come down but people don't buy it because the price is too high.
There are also other reasons - including ignorance of how good an injected LPG system can be and how much power you can get out of an LPG only setup.
Not to mention that LPG is still not available at every servo, so if you convert fully to gas you have to be careful of the vehicles range, especially in the country. In my case my car does 330kms to a tank, but there is no LPG available between Perth and Geraldton which is 420kms, Geraldton and Carnarvon (480ks) and Carnarvon and home in Exmouth (360ks) so that means I run out 3 times .......
Also the tanks are tooo big and take up too much room unless you go fro the scuba tank style but that adds more expense and they don't always have enough capacity. I have a VN wagon and the LPG tankis a donut style that sits in the spare wheel well, which means the wheel sits vertically in the cargo area and takes up more (awkward) room than a normal LPG tank probably would.
But apart from that I can't really think of a good reason why more people don't use it.........
From my own research the cost benefits of running a good injection system are outweighed by the cost of the installation in the first place. And some one on here also rightly pointed out that if you weigh up the cost of going to a normal dual fuel system aginst an injection system then you would almost never recover the extra $2000 (or whatever the price difference is) since the savings in economy between injected and normal systems is not that great.
So the only reason to go to a proper injection system is performance and you can get a lot of petrol performance for the cost of an injected LPG system.
its a bit of a catch 22 - if more people bought injected systems the price would come down but people don't buy it because the price is too high.
There are also other reasons - including ignorance of how good an injected LPG system can be and how much power you can get out of an LPG only setup.
Not to mention that LPG is still not available at every servo, so if you convert fully to gas you have to be careful of the vehicles range, especially in the country. In my case my car does 330kms to a tank, but there is no LPG available between Perth and Geraldton which is 420kms, Geraldton and Carnarvon (480ks) and Carnarvon and home in Exmouth (360ks) so that means I run out 3 times .......
Also the tanks are tooo big and take up too much room unless you go fro the scuba tank style but that adds more expense and they don't always have enough capacity. I have a VN wagon and the LPG tankis a donut style that sits in the spare wheel well, which means the wheel sits vertically in the cargo area and takes up more (awkward) room than a normal LPG tank probably would.
But apart from that I can't really think of a good reason why more people don't use it.........
#3
TerrA LX
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Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:57 PM
Hey guys... was just wondering, since LPG has a higher octane, cheaper, less pollution why dont more people use it in a performance sense?
Just remember LPG has a lower energy density than petrol.
#4
Heath
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:17 AM
Yeah so you use a bit more of it. No biggie
There are obviously advantages and disadvantages of every fuel, but when you look at the emissions differences, or pull the head off a car that's been running on LPG for the last 150,000km and don't see any carbon. Well it's hard to argue with that, or the price. I haven't chased power with LPG yet but the system that I have atm works a lot better than the standard fuel system, has a very good response etc (if I spent that money on hotting it up with petrol stuff it would go harder again as many will point out) but I wouldn't be paying like $6 per hundred km either. I like LPG but it's not for everyone or everything
Man only uses petrol because Neanderthal couldn't work out how to use the gas filler.
There are obviously advantages and disadvantages of every fuel, but when you look at the emissions differences, or pull the head off a car that's been running on LPG for the last 150,000km and don't see any carbon. Well it's hard to argue with that, or the price. I haven't chased power with LPG yet but the system that I have atm works a lot better than the standard fuel system, has a very good response etc (if I spent that money on hotting it up with petrol stuff it would go harder again as many will point out) but I wouldn't be paying like $6 per hundred km either. I like LPG but it's not for everyone or everything
Man only uses petrol because Neanderthal couldn't work out how to use the gas filler.
#5
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:25 AM
I had my heart set on one of the first Icom Liquid injection setups that are now on the market as that is the ultimate LPG setup atm and has had lots of testing OS: more power and similar fuel consumption to petrol, compared to vapour carb setups that do use a fair bit more.
RAGE from what i have gathered look to know there shit and are doing some impressive stuff, but yeah don't get to carried away by the sales person!
Due to the cost of a custom setup for a 355 in a LH needing ecu etc, as no kits just bolt on like they do on LS1 commo's, i just couldn't justify the extra cost over a simple and more traditional v8 looking Technocarb.
Hopefully as more Liquid injection setups hit the market which i think at least one more brand is coming, pricing may come down, as a setup cost is a joke when you take the rebate out of the equation! Although a top of the line Petrol system can add up in cost too. If i had a late model car i would jump on liquid setup asap but most people know i am fan of LPG
RAGE from what i have gathered look to know there shit and are doing some impressive stuff, but yeah don't get to carried away by the sales person!
Due to the cost of a custom setup for a 355 in a LH needing ecu etc, as no kits just bolt on like they do on LS1 commo's, i just couldn't justify the extra cost over a simple and more traditional v8 looking Technocarb.
Hopefully as more Liquid injection setups hit the market which i think at least one more brand is coming, pricing may come down, as a setup cost is a joke when you take the rebate out of the equation! Although a top of the line Petrol system can add up in cost too. If i had a late model car i would jump on liquid setup asap but most people know i am fan of LPG
#6
FastEHHolden
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:58 AM
My brother has vapour injection on his XR8...his previous car was a factory gas AU ute....the XR8 cains it for fuel economy and obviously for power...he has to drive it fairly hard to get the numbers down to the same economy as his ute.
I've been driving an LPG only powered car for nearly 15 years ..way before it was cool to do so..everyone else was using duel fuel systems...I though it was going to be the saviour of modified cars....but it seems that hardly any one else is driving old iron with LPG.
It has its drawbacks like waiting to warm the converter and when you run out of gas you cant tip a gerry in...all if which is overcome with forward planning.
I think everyone should get on it...especially in an age where 202's and 308's are in the "non performance" category because of the fast factory stuff like LS1 etc becoming bloody cheap...so if you can't compete for power, why not just resign yourself to cruising and not try screw every last HP out of your setup...go gas and enjoy the ride.
I've been driving an LPG only powered car for nearly 15 years ..way before it was cool to do so..everyone else was using duel fuel systems...I though it was going to be the saviour of modified cars....but it seems that hardly any one else is driving old iron with LPG.
It has its drawbacks like waiting to warm the converter and when you run out of gas you cant tip a gerry in...all if which is overcome with forward planning.
I think everyone should get on it...especially in an age where 202's and 308's are in the "non performance" category because of the fast factory stuff like LS1 etc becoming bloody cheap...so if you can't compete for power, why not just resign yourself to cruising and not try screw every last HP out of your setup...go gas and enjoy the ride.
#7
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:13 AM
gas isnt gettin cheaper either.
#8
FastEHHolden
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:23 AM
neither is petrol
#9
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:34 AM
In reguard to setup costs for my Vapour LPG install it was cheaper then a Petrol Injection setup.. Consider my car was originally Carby so I can to buy everything from scratch...
My setup cost:
Injection Manifold $300
Vapour Injection system from rage including Injectors, gas tank, gas hardware, ECU, quad coils, fitment n wiring, dyno tuning (basically drive in drive out) $5500
Government rebate at the time was $3000
Total end cost $2800
My housemate, with same motor in a Gem but went petrol cost:
Injection Manifold $300
bigger Injectors $250 (2nd hand not brand new like mine)
ECU $1100
Quad coils $ Cant remember what he paid
Wiring $700
EFI fuel pump $200
Surge tank $100
Rising Rate fuel pressure Reg $200
Dyno Tuning $800
Total $3550
Now obviously it was the government rebate that made it viable... which has since been reduced to $1700 here in WA I Believe... but funny thing is the price of gas conversions has also dropped, go figure
But yas are right, I dont like the way the LPG price is going at the pump! there building a massive gas plant up north! it should be cheaper
My setup cost:
Injection Manifold $300
Vapour Injection system from rage including Injectors, gas tank, gas hardware, ECU, quad coils, fitment n wiring, dyno tuning (basically drive in drive out) $5500
Government rebate at the time was $3000
Total end cost $2800
My housemate, with same motor in a Gem but went petrol cost:
Injection Manifold $300
bigger Injectors $250 (2nd hand not brand new like mine)
ECU $1100
Quad coils $ Cant remember what he paid
Wiring $700
EFI fuel pump $200
Surge tank $100
Rising Rate fuel pressure Reg $200
Dyno Tuning $800
Total $3550
Now obviously it was the government rebate that made it viable... which has since been reduced to $1700 here in WA I Believe... but funny thing is the price of gas conversions has also dropped, go figure
But yas are right, I dont like the way the LPG price is going at the pump! there building a massive gas plant up north! it should be cheaper
Edited by Viper, 04 March 2010 - 09:37 AM.
#10
Dr Terry
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:38 AM
There are a lot of myths surrounding LPG, the main problem is, many people, including the average mechanic, don't know anything about it. Some are even 'scared' of it.
1. EXCISE. The excise on petrol is 38c per litre & up until recently, was zero on LPG. The Federal Government in their wisdom, decided to put excise on LPG slowly over time. I forget the exact time-frame but they were adding 2.5c per litre per year for 5 years until it plateaus at 12.5c. This is luckily a long way short of 38c but does take away some of LPG's price advantage. Viper mentioned a price jump from 20c to 70c. I have seen 70c but I haven't seen anything below 40c for over a decade. What I can't explain is why LPG has gone from around 48c to around 65c in Sydney at the same time petrol has gone from $1.50 to $1.20. Besides, I would rather buy an Australian product that is in abundance (LPG) rather than give the Arabs what they want for imported crude oil.
2. ECONOMY. LPG has 20% less energy (by volume) than petrol so on average you will always use around 20% more litres for the same distance. The octane level is higher, so while usage might be more the horsepower potential is higher, a bit like methanol. The price of LPG is usually around half that of petrol so regardless of the distance travelled, the net cost will usually be around 60%. if you spend $5200 per year on petrol ($100 per week) then you will spend only $3,120 for the same distance on LPG. That's a saving of over $2,000 in 1 year & over $4,000 in 2 years, this will buy the very best LPG sequential injection system. I own 4 cars on LPG, a VT wagon, a VX Calais & WH Statesman & a Combo (Barina) van. They are all reliable & cheap to run (especially the 1.4 Combo) so I would not hesitate using LPG in any car.
3. AVAILABILITY. Yes, many country petrol stations don't have LPG, but this situation is improving slowly. My preferred system is the sequential dual fuel type, so if I fill both tanks I can drive from Sydney to Brisbane & then some, so lack of LPG filling stations has never been an issue.
4. COST OF CONVERSION. This varies wildly depending on the type of system, but they all pay for themselves very quickly over time (see above). Because a lot of you guys carry out your own work, you can save money by doing some of the install work yourself, the bits that don't require a licence, like the tank fitting & wiring etc. In NSW, it's only the pressurised connections that you are not allowed to touch, without a licence. Try & find an install guy that will work with you, so you can fit several parts & then he finishes it off & fits the approval plate. Modern systems are reliable & easy to tune unlike the old 'carby mixer' systems of the past. Another advantage of the sequential injection system is no backfiring, simply because there is no LPG/air mix in the intake tract to explode.
5. SAFETY. LPG is more difficult to ignite than petrol so safety in accident situations is better especially when you consider how much stronger & safer the LPG tank is compared to the average petrol tank. I would prefer to be in an accident (including fire) in an LPG car than a petrol car.
Dr Terry
1. EXCISE. The excise on petrol is 38c per litre & up until recently, was zero on LPG. The Federal Government in their wisdom, decided to put excise on LPG slowly over time. I forget the exact time-frame but they were adding 2.5c per litre per year for 5 years until it plateaus at 12.5c. This is luckily a long way short of 38c but does take away some of LPG's price advantage. Viper mentioned a price jump from 20c to 70c. I have seen 70c but I haven't seen anything below 40c for over a decade. What I can't explain is why LPG has gone from around 48c to around 65c in Sydney at the same time petrol has gone from $1.50 to $1.20. Besides, I would rather buy an Australian product that is in abundance (LPG) rather than give the Arabs what they want for imported crude oil.
2. ECONOMY. LPG has 20% less energy (by volume) than petrol so on average you will always use around 20% more litres for the same distance. The octane level is higher, so while usage might be more the horsepower potential is higher, a bit like methanol. The price of LPG is usually around half that of petrol so regardless of the distance travelled, the net cost will usually be around 60%. if you spend $5200 per year on petrol ($100 per week) then you will spend only $3,120 for the same distance on LPG. That's a saving of over $2,000 in 1 year & over $4,000 in 2 years, this will buy the very best LPG sequential injection system. I own 4 cars on LPG, a VT wagon, a VX Calais & WH Statesman & a Combo (Barina) van. They are all reliable & cheap to run (especially the 1.4 Combo) so I would not hesitate using LPG in any car.
3. AVAILABILITY. Yes, many country petrol stations don't have LPG, but this situation is improving slowly. My preferred system is the sequential dual fuel type, so if I fill both tanks I can drive from Sydney to Brisbane & then some, so lack of LPG filling stations has never been an issue.
4. COST OF CONVERSION. This varies wildly depending on the type of system, but they all pay for themselves very quickly over time (see above). Because a lot of you guys carry out your own work, you can save money by doing some of the install work yourself, the bits that don't require a licence, like the tank fitting & wiring etc. In NSW, it's only the pressurised connections that you are not allowed to touch, without a licence. Try & find an install guy that will work with you, so you can fit several parts & then he finishes it off & fits the approval plate. Modern systems are reliable & easy to tune unlike the old 'carby mixer' systems of the past. Another advantage of the sequential injection system is no backfiring, simply because there is no LPG/air mix in the intake tract to explode.
5. SAFETY. LPG is more difficult to ignite than petrol so safety in accident situations is better especially when you consider how much stronger & safer the LPG tank is compared to the average petrol tank. I would prefer to be in an accident (including fire) in an LPG car than a petrol car.
Dr Terry
#11
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 11:46 AM
Cheers Terry, have renewed some of my faith in LPG...
Its funny when People see my car and then they notice its on gas and there like pffft thats weak. It seems most people still view LPG just as a cheap, low performance fuel.
Its funny when People see my car and then they notice its on gas and there like pffft thats weak. It seems most people still view LPG just as a cheap, low performance fuel.
#12
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 12:23 PM
It seems most people still view LPG just as a cheap, low performance fuel.
Hit the nail on the head.
#13
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 03:17 PM
How's that book coming along Doc.
#14
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:39 PM
Are older LPG converted cars still required to have all the emissions controls working? I was under the impression that LPG could be used as a way to legally sidestep these regulations and allow the use of bigger carbs etc.
#15
Peter UC
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:06 PM
As far as emissions are concerned the regulations state that for dedicated LPG systems prior to 79/00 (I think) regulation which came in about 2001, you need to keep all emission equipment that the petrol setup had except for the items that only work on the petrol system (terribly said I know but it means items such as charcol canisters etc). Item like EGRs cat convertors etc still need to be kept.
I also don't know why there is such a predudice against LPG systems, I'm converting my UC, not for a cost benefit, but to make the draw through turbo system I'm planning work correctly (as LPG doesn't suffer from fuel dropout). However I couldn't be anymore biased as I work as an engineer for APA.
Also anyone interested in a liquid system keep an eye out for the APA system 'liquijet' or something like that, the system is a lot better than the Icom and Vialle systems, should be out the first half of this year sometime.
I also don't know why there is such a predudice against LPG systems, I'm converting my UC, not for a cost benefit, but to make the draw through turbo system I'm planning work correctly (as LPG doesn't suffer from fuel dropout). However I couldn't be anymore biased as I work as an engineer for APA.
Also anyone interested in a liquid system keep an eye out for the APA system 'liquijet' or something like that, the system is a lot better than the Icom and Vialle systems, should be out the first half of this year sometime.
#16
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:41 PM
There is a prejudice against LPG systems because so many people have been burnt by unreliable, poor performing LPG systems in the past. When a LPG system proves itself as reliable over a five year period you may be able to convince them to give it a go.
The company I work for has trialled factory and aftermarket LPG cars for our WA country reps over the last ten years. The LPG cars were so unreliable that the reps now refuse to drive them. The cost of repairs and downtime reduced the fuel savings so there was little argument from management. The reduced range per tank and limited availability in the bush was also a significant problem. Many country petrol stations have removed their LPG tanks because selling LPG was not economically viable.
The majority of city drivers do not travel enough kilometres per year to make LPG economically viable without the government rebate.
The company I work for has trialled factory and aftermarket LPG cars for our WA country reps over the last ten years. The LPG cars were so unreliable that the reps now refuse to drive them. The cost of repairs and downtime reduced the fuel savings so there was little argument from management. The reduced range per tank and limited availability in the bush was also a significant problem. Many country petrol stations have removed their LPG tanks because selling LPG was not economically viable.
The majority of city drivers do not travel enough kilometres per year to make LPG economically viable without the government rebate.
Edited by ls2lxhatch, 04 March 2010 - 07:45 PM.
#17
rodomo
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:06 PM
L.P.G. is great!...............................................for BBQ's and forklifts.
#18
_niterida_
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 09:22 PM
LPG for me is actually more expensive than fuel - I get 4kms per litre on gas and 6km/l on petrol. But the thing is that LPG costs $1.20/l and fuel only $1.50/l. So for every 100kms it costs me $30 on gas and $20 on petrol - the joys of living in remote country town.
But yeah a straight injected LPG system is the way to go if you are building an engine from scratch and set it up to make the most of the gas. Good clean power - the greenies will love you :-)
But yeah a straight injected LPG system is the way to go if you are building an engine from scratch and set it up to make the most of the gas. Good clean power - the greenies will love you :-)
#19
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Posted 04 March 2010 - 10:18 PM
wow $1.20 for Gas! but yea my 355 has been built with gas in mind, 11:1 comp (to suit turbo/charger in the future)
#20
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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:36 AM
Its fantastic stuff! The conversion paid for itself in 17000Km (done in 1994) and even allowing for a few changes over the years has paid for the majority of my engine upgrades since. Does it seem to have good and bad days - Yes, but then so do all the carby petrol cars I have. There has never been any engine damage or abnormal wear on any of the engine pulldowns.
R
R
#21
_torbirdie_
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 06:01 PM
Is the lpg conversion industry dying?
possibly the problem is that petrol has remained very affordable and with the improved efficiency of new cars and conversions costing at least $4-5k, there is really very little incentive to convert for the average motorist. One only needs a couple of visits back to the installer to get minor points attended to and along with half the boot having disappeared the attraction can wear off.
Certainly an older car that gets driven daily, lpg is a no brainer even without the rebate, but there are only so many older cars to convert for the industry to survive on.
Just a minor point of correction and point to consider :
2. ECONOMY. LPG has 20% less energy (by volume) than petrol so on average you will always use around 20% more litres for the same distance
one litre of typical lpg mix contains 26MJ/L and unleaded contains ~34MJ/L, so lpg has 23% less energy per litre, or petrol has 30% more energy than lpg per litre. This means based simply on the numbers, that consumption on lpg increases by 30% from the petrol consumption and this is what one would expect to see with anything you'd bolt on to a holden 6 or 8.
possibly the problem is that petrol has remained very affordable and with the improved efficiency of new cars and conversions costing at least $4-5k, there is really very little incentive to convert for the average motorist. One only needs a couple of visits back to the installer to get minor points attended to and along with half the boot having disappeared the attraction can wear off.
Certainly an older car that gets driven daily, lpg is a no brainer even without the rebate, but there are only so many older cars to convert for the industry to survive on.
Just a minor point of correction and point to consider :
2. ECONOMY. LPG has 20% less energy (by volume) than petrol so on average you will always use around 20% more litres for the same distance
one litre of typical lpg mix contains 26MJ/L and unleaded contains ~34MJ/L, so lpg has 23% less energy per litre, or petrol has 30% more energy than lpg per litre. This means based simply on the numbers, that consumption on lpg increases by 30% from the petrol consumption and this is what one would expect to see with anything you'd bolt on to a holden 6 or 8.
#22
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 08:03 PM
and when you add in all the added mantance cost (tank testing/converter/etc etc)
i can soon see how the attraction soon wears off
mind you i did enjoy driving the old fraud van to and from work for less than 40 bucks a week
and nitrader i did make it to geraldton on one tank once or twice as well
i can soon see how the attraction soon wears off
mind you i did enjoy driving the old fraud van to and from work for less than 40 bucks a week
and nitrader i did make it to geraldton on one tank once or twice as well
#23
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 08:27 PM
I only get 330kms to a tank of gas :-(and nitrader i did make it to geraldton on one tank once or twice as well
Maybe have to fill it up again just out of perth at GinGin or Cataby ??
I might be moving to Gero soon so it wil be on gas all the time then - I think its only 70 or 80c a litre there :-)
#24
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Posted 06 March 2010 - 09:32 PM
i love lpg for my daily drivers my last 3 cars have been on dual fuel i currently drive a vs v6 ute 5 speed it has a 60 litre tank i get 390 ks around town and nely 500 on a trip,
i think the cost of getting a mechanic to change ur fuel pump and filter would be dearer than getting a tank restamped, when im buying a new daily driver i only look for cars that are on dual fuel so i dont have to fork out for the conversion
i love filling my car up at the servo and it costs 31 dollars and i look over and see petrol cars putting in 70 bucks i dont miss that at all
i think the cost of getting a mechanic to change ur fuel pump and filter would be dearer than getting a tank restamped, when im buying a new daily driver i only look for cars that are on dual fuel so i dont have to fork out for the conversion
i love filling my car up at the servo and it costs 31 dollars and i look over and see petrol cars putting in 70 bucks i dont miss that at all
#25
FastEHHolden
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Posted 07 March 2010 - 08:29 AM
$200 for a restamp....I can't understand why ebay lpg systems are so cheap...i would say every 3 or so weeks I see a system from a Torana on there....not that it really matters...its just that the cradle bolts in without modification.
I'm planning on getting around the boot space issue (that really wasn't a problem in the EH) by removing the petrol tank in the LX and having the LPG underneath the boot floor...with a fake droptank style cover.
I'm planning on getting around the boot space issue (that really wasn't a problem in the EH) by removing the petrol tank in the LX and having the LPG underneath the boot floor...with a fake droptank style cover.
Edited by FastEHHolden, 07 March 2010 - 08:29 AM.
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