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Raceme's next upgrade


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#1 _raceme_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 01:28 PM

Hi folks,

Been a long time since my last post, mostly because my car is always broken, or Bomber Watson just posts for me (isn't he a good bloke) :P
After the drag meet in Benaraby a few months ago (aka Battle of the Hand Grenades) my car made a number of new fruitful noises, and limped home to lick its wounds. I managed to run a 13.1 @ 120mph which was pretty impressive considering i was running street tyres that were 6 years old. I also realised after the night was over that i forgot to let my tyres down so they had an awesome 34psi in them.

After about 5 or 6 people came up to me that night and wondered why i wasn't running an auto i started to think that maybe they were right and it was time to move to the 'dark side'. I also must admit that after seeing pete's HR launch off the line with the trans brake, that maybe it wouldnt be such a bad option to put an auto in the old girl. It will hopefully improve the drivability of the car around the street too, as the loose gearbox with huge backlash, and the button clutch do not make for fun driving on a sunday afternoon.

A few thoughts that i had which people might be able to help me with:

Can you still have fun racing around a circuit with an auto? This is the only reason i persist on keeping the 5 speed.

What would be a good auto to use, obviously the easiest to adapt would be a TH700 (4L60E) as the crossmember already suits but im not sure these fit in a LX torana tunnel.

What is going to be the best sort of setup that will work for drags and track, eg what stall, shift kits, what shifter to run?

I will also try to post up a video my brother took of my car at the drags, its a little blurry, but i think it still sounds good.
I will also post up a pic of my engine oil after only 800km, will give you guys a good laugh.

Regards
Raceme

#2 _raceme_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 03:39 PM

I also forgot to mention that i have also been thinking about upgrading the internals of my T5 box which i realise will probably loose the last bit of street drivability but should make it fun for both drag and track work.

I have been looking at G-Force Racing who make spur dog ring, helical dog ring and helical synchronised gears for about 5000 dollars. They look pretty tough but are only rated at 600 ft.lbs of torque which is a bit concerning considering last time i saw on the dyno i was making about 1200 ft.lbs of torque. But then again if i can put that much torque through a standard box and it doesnt break that says something.

Has anyone had any experience with these guys?

Edit: Just a quick side note, i just worked out that as i passed the finish line at the drags i was doing 197km/h, which with my gear ratio and tyres equates to 6450rpm, which gave me a laugh for a stock engine thats boosted.

Edited by raceme, 21 September 2010 - 03:48 PM.


#3 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:33 PM

I suspect your torque figure is wrong.

1380hp @ 6000 rpm works out at 1207.96 lb-ft.

700hp @ 6000 rpm works out at 612.73 lb-ft

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 21 September 2010 - 05:39 PM.


#4 _raceme_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:05 PM

umm, it has been a few years since the dyno, but i had a few people around me and they all saw the figure.
did you factor in that the diff gears 3.5 to 1 reduction increases torque?
you have me thinking now.

ahh, ok, i have thought about it more now, i would need to get the engine dyno'd seperately to find out what torque it produces and that would be well under the 600 lb-ft, infact if you divide 1200/3.5 = 342 lb-ft thankyou.

Edited by raceme, 21 September 2010 - 06:19 PM.


#5 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:55 PM

The engine dyno figures will be higher than the chassis dyno figures. The diff ratio is not used to calculate flywheel HP from rwhp.

Torque = (5252 x HP ) / rpm

HP = ( Torque * rpm ) / 5252

If you are producing 1200 lb-ft on a chassis dyno at 6000 rpm then you would be producing 1370 rwhp. The figures at the flywheel will be higher.

A 2900 lb car running a 13.0 would need to produce around 260 rwhp which is 227.59 lb-ft at 6000 rpm. 260 rwhp would be around 306 hp at the flywheel which is 267 lb-ft.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 21 September 2010 - 06:56 PM.


#6 _raceme_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:41 PM

drifting slightly off track, does anyone have any input of gearbox choice?

#7 _mick74lh_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:42 PM

I can't offer much advice, but the first transmission to come to mind was the TH700. Street Machine did a write up on fitting one behind a 186 in an EK ute in like 2004. It had been mildly tricked up and I think they'd fitted a manualized B&M type shifter. Not sure if you'll have to cut the tunnel in a Torana though.

Also I loved that battle of the hand grenades thread. A 13.1 isn't bloody bad considering all the variables working against it on that occasion.

#8 _Quagmire_

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 11:59 PM

go a 4180? i think
same size as the t700 but handles more power stock
the commonwhore boys put these boxes behind there high horsepower turboed cars

#9 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 02:30 AM

I think you mean the 4L80e.

The naming convention for the GM transmissions is as follows.

4 = Number of forward gears
L = Longitudinal
80 = Gross vehicle weight rating. Presumably 80 means a vehicle with a maximum total mass of 8000 lbs when loaded.
E = Electronic

The boxes in increasing order of factory strength rating are.

4L60e
4L65e
4L80e

The bell housing and body on the early 4L60 gearbox and the TH700 were one piece. The late 4L60 and the 4L65e have a removable bell housing and are a little bigger in this area than the early boxes. The 4L80e is larger than the 4L65e in all dimensions.

The 4 pinion 700R4 / 4L60E rear planet gears can be replaced with the stronger 5 pinion rear planet gears.

#10 Litre8

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 09:09 AM

If you want to keep your left leg employed maybe this...

#11 Heath

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 10:20 AM

Maybe give it some grip and then have another go at the strip? There are some really fast manual cars around, maybe see if you can get it to run an 11 and then see if the manual is stopping you from going any quicker. Obviously any auto is gonna be gayer when you hit corners, and the other thing is: how often do you take it to the strip? If that is the only place where the auto will be better, and you're only gonna take it there 1/100th of the time you drive the car...

#12 _raceme_

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 05:00 PM

sorry, have been at a mine site for the last two days,

First of all, keeping my manual is not really an option, its got huge backlash and the car bunny hops, jerks and doesnt feel good, even on the highway at 100km/h. (Bomber Watson might be able to explain what it does in better detail when he gets back from NSW).
Second, since i live in rockhampton the closest thing we have is benaraby raceway (a drag strip) so as much as i would love to do track work, there is no race track within cooee.

a TH700 is sounding like the way to go, is there much use using the stronger 4L65 or 4L80's, i dont mind spending the money to get it built properly, i would like it to shift very firm, which i wouldnt think you would get from any of the standard boxes.

That jerico 5 speed looks amazing, but i think i am leaning towards an auto for now as it will be the least expensive for a bit of fun. there is no use putting a great manual in for track work unless i spend the money and upgrade my brakes, suspension ect.

raceme

#13 _gtr-xu1_

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 07:05 PM

Im running the G-force G101 rated at 1000HP but cars not yet finished so i cant tell you what i think of it

http://www.gforcerac..._PRICE LIST.pdf

#14 _Kush_

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 08:16 PM

Is it possible to buy a sequential box that would suit a tough street car?

#15 Heath

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 02:41 PM

I didn't really understand where the 'fruitfull noises' were coming from. Are you sure your diff is holding together nicely and that it hasn't developed a lash problem?

The manual's advantage is not only on the racetrack, it's just about everywhere other than the drag strip simply because you have too much power and not enough grip. Other than that, the only attraction to autos has gotta be cost. They are cheaper than setting up a manual, but you already have a hydraulic clutch arrangement, appropriate crossmember & tailshaft I'm guessing so you're just losing out if you put a slushy in it haha. Your car

#16 _Herne_

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 02:45 PM

Is it possible to buy a sequential box that would suit a tough street car?


Anything is possible if you throw enough dollars at it.
Sequentials I imagine do not come cheap or even budget priced but having said that I have not priced one.

Herne

#17 wot179

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 03:23 PM

Now that you are getting a slushbox,you should probably put this site on your favorites list.

http://www.sussan.com.au/

#18 Litre8

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 03:54 PM

Are the Renegate sequential shifters still available?

#19 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 04:09 PM

www.Renagate.com

Royrm fitted one recently in this thread.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 24 September 2010 - 04:10 PM.


#20 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 04:41 PM

How come lots of threads here get pumped full of useless info???

Ok ok Anthony put this in the wrong section, i chastised him about that last night while he was around, but seriously guys, cummon!!

Howard and GTR-XU1 are the only people who have really been of use, Beergut and Andy have been usefull as well. Craigs comment was pretty funny.

The owner of the car is a die hard manual fan, but this car is simply not streetable with a manual. Way to much HP, solid center button clutch, its an animal. Doable, but not really enjoyable.

We decided a manualized auto would be the best option, i dont know where people got the slush box idea from. A manualized auto will give the car a lot more streetability, which is the main thing we are chasing here.

Heath, sorry mate, your comments in this thread are totally useless, i know you have never had or driven a vehicle like this, and it shows. In this situation the only place a manual would be better would be on the race track, and to get this car on the track would need a lot of dollars spent in a lot of other places, something the owner can not do at this point. Also im guessing you still havnt driven a properly built manualized auto? If not i suggest you do. Will open your eyes.

And no, its not the diff. Basically we put the fully rebuilt box into the car when we rebulit the engine, then drove it about 500km on the highway, at light throttle. This basically destroyed the box. Since then the owner has taken it to the drags and babied it and it is still in there, just. Over all it has done less than 1000km behind this engine, being driven carefully 99% of the time, and is about to fall to bits.

Andy: the HP and torque figures arent that far off. You have #@$^%& your calculations up, royally. The OP didnt state at what RPM those figures were taken. For some stupid reason you have assumed 6000. This is incorrect. In actual fact when the car was on the dyno at a very reputable shop being tuned it fried the Exceedy sports tough clutch and blew both head gaskets at around 4200rpm. This has since been replaced with a solid sprung center puck clutch, MLS head gaskets and ARP studs.

Also with your Moroso inspired calculations you have #@$^%& up there to. Firstly i have never seen a V8 Torana sedan with a full interior, extra 50kg of blower and intercooler etc, a driver and half a tank of fuel pull in at 2900lb. 3000lb is closer to the money and still on the light optimistic side.

Secondly for the Moroso style calculations to be correct you have to be at full throttle with the engine developing maximum power for the entire quarter mile pass. This was not the case, the car spun the tyres furiously in first, second, got a bit of grip but still very crossed up in third and gave a bit of a wiggle from the back end in fourth, basically it spun the tyres and the owner was on and off the throttle for 3/4 track, hardly going over half throttle for the first 1/2 track.

You seem to do that a lot, your contributions to the forum and your knowledge are great, but perhaps you shouldent run head first into a situation??? Honestly your first few posts really shat me off, you have taken incorrect figures, done some fancy maths with them and tried to make yourself look cool and insult the OP at the same time. Fail.

All the OP is trying to do is find a box that will survive, if he stated that the engine only makes 600ft/lb's and you recommended a box to suit i dont think it would last long, do you?

BACK ON TOPIC

At the moment were looking at importing something like THIS

Thats just the first one i found and will look at others, but i think TCI is farily good. Has anyone had any experience with this gear or anything USEFULL to add to the thread.

Oh yeah, Howard, he really wants one of those Jerico's, and we were in discussion about that last night as well :P.

Cheers.

#21 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 07:24 PM

Andy: the HP and torque figures arent that far off. You have #@$^%& your calculations up, royally.


How much horsepower at what rpm is this engine with 1200 ft-lbs or torque making? If it is actually making 1200 ft-lbs then your gearbox choices are extremely limited.

Raceme has not posted a HP figure or even what type of engine he has. Raceme has stated that his stock boosted engine produces 1200 ft-lbs of torque at the wheels and that he was reasonably happy with a 13.1 @ 120 mph which he calculated to be 6450 rpm.

If I ran a 13.1 with a engine that produced 1200 ft-lbs or torque I would not be happy. I also doubted that Raceme's stock boosted engine was making 1200 ft-lbs and concluded that the torque figure was probably wrong.

So I used 6000 rpm calculate the horsepower figure for Raceme to confirm. If you can produce 1200 ft-lbs at 6000 rpm on a chassis dyno then you have 1380 rwhp. If you can produce 1200 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm on a chassis dyno then you have 914 rwhp. If you can do this with a stock boosted engine then I want one.

Edited by ls2lxhatch, 24 September 2010 - 07:27 PM.


#22 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 10:47 PM

We dont wank around with imaginary HP figures in my shed.

Can do it all you want on the forums.

The car has never been tested properly for HP on a chassis dyno, as the only time it was on one it fried the clutch and blew both head gaskets at low rpm, LIKE I JUST SAID.

So to answer your question, no idea how much HP, somewhere between 50 and 5000 most likely.

The OP doesnt want to guess.

And why bring up the drag times again? As i explained the Moroso style of hp measurement relies on WOT for the entire quarter mile pass, this car was at less than half throttle for most of the pass. Totally irrelevant and please dont bring it up again as you should know better.

Perhaps just ask more questions before you start throwing off wild accusations and telling people there wrong.

I believe the actual TQ figure was more like 1050-1100ft/lb's, with a lot of compromises that we are going through and slowly sorting out, hence the 1200 quoted. Better to have something a bit stronger than something to weak.

Sounded insanely high to me to, but i have seen a couple of similar styled engines recently making the same kind of figures so not out of the question.

Cheers.

#23 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:03 PM

You would definitely have to be happy producing just under twice the torque of Litre8. Please tell me more about this stock boosted engine.

Posted Image

#24 _Bomber Watson_

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:35 PM

304, Come TB mani, Vortec blower, Haltec.

L8 is NA.

Cheers.

#25 ls2lxhatch

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 11:58 PM

CAPA VE Ute Vortec 409 ci.

The engine was stroked to 409 cubic inches, with a one off crank, rods and pistons installed to ensure the engine could withstand over 20psi of boost at 7200rpm. A Custom Camshaft and Ported Big Valve Heads were also used in the build. A custom supercharger kit was developed to allow a V7 YSi Supercharger to be driven off the crank with a 50mm gilmer pulley system. The supercharger kit install includes larger 3.5" pipework and a Custom 200mm thick intercooler with Mondo Bypass Valve mounted behind the front bumper. Exhaust Gasses leave the engine via CAPA 1 7/8" Tri-Y Extractors and a Twin 3" Exhaust.


Posted Image

The dyno sheet does not show the torque or rpm but if you use 7200 rpm then the torque works out at 675 ft-lbs.




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