Hi,
Just ironing out a few of the problems before I get the car on the dyno...
I can't remember the exact work done, however several of the oil galleries and feeds to the bearings have been relieved somewhat.
I am running a JP HV oil pump with HPR30 oil and high volume sump.
The car is fine when cold and has oil pressure of about 15-20 psi at idle, when it heats up, the oil is around 35 psi @ 3000rpm, however it drops down to around 5psi at idle of around 900. The engine is fresh and bearing clearance is not an issue.
Because of the relief work, will this give abnormally low readings at idle, whereas at high rpm, more oil can be pushed through?
Cheers, Dan
Holden 6 Oil pressure
Started by
_PeteXU1_
, Dec 07 2010 09:18 PM
39 replies to this topic
#2
_ljxu1torana_
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Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:49 PM
first of all the best thing to do is get rid of the penrite oil,use some thing like castrol edge 25/50.holden 6 cylinders dont have good oil pressure normally.the best thing to do is pack your oil pump with vaselene,this will give you good oil pressure.thanks jason.
#3
greens nice
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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:06 PM
the best thing to do is pack your oil pump with vaselene,this will give you good oil pressure.
That's almost funny.
#4
AbsynthHatch
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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:10 PM
Yeh put a smile on my face too.
#5
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Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:31 PM
first of all the best thing to do is get rid of the penrite oil,use some thing like castrol edge 25/50.holden 6 cylinders dont have good oil pressure normally.the best thing to do is pack your oil pump with vaselene,this will give you good oil pressure.thanks jason.
Nothing wrong with Penrite oil. I have used Penrite HPR 30 in my 202 for years, runs 45 psi hot and around 20 psi idling at 750rpm.
How long is the vaso going to last in the pump before it has diluted into the oil? Not very long at all I suspect.
Dan,
The relief work to the oil galleries should not make any difference to the oil pressure.
The bearing clearances will have an effect on oil pressure as will the condition of the oil pump and the grade of oil you are using. An old trick was to install a nut about 1/4" thick under the bypass spring in the pump to increase the maximum oil pressure.
The 73 Bathurst XU1 used a heavier bypass spring in the pump to increase the oil pressure to 60psi hot.
#6
TerrA LX
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:18 AM
How accurate is the gauge?
Maybe a simple switch to 40w is needed.
Maybe a simple switch to 40w is needed.
#7
_73LJWhiteSL_
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 12:53 AM
A very good point Tera LX. On my GTR Cluster at idle when hot my stock 173 was showing nothing at one point. A mechanical gauge showed 5psi, but replacing the crank and rod bearings brought it back up again. Also ensuring the oil pump was nice and tight to the block.
I used to use HPR40 I think in the LJ as the oil preasure seemed to higher than HPR30.
Steve
I used to use HPR40 I think in the LJ as the oil preasure seemed to higher than HPR30.
Steve
#8
_gtrtorana_
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 07:20 AM
My 202 has relieved oil gallerys and various other oil gallary mods. I use the std oil pump and run Castrol Edge 25/50 with no oil pressure issues hot or cold.
#9
warrenm
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 08:45 AM
Remove the pressure relief valve & fit 2 or 3 washers behind the spring. That should lift the pressure a bit. The cam bearing clearance will alter the pressure as well, I've fitted cams in engines & the oil pressure has changed with no other alterations. A change to HPR 40 may help as well, but play with the relief valve 1st.
#10
_Mike73_
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 02:50 PM
Holden 6's all had main bearing problems which allowed the bearing clearance to go from .001 to .003 thou
this has an effect on oil pressere.
If a Holden 6 has not had the main bearing tunnels bored out in the recon phase then there is no way the bearing clearance will be anywhere near the .001 clearance it should be, bearing wear makes the situation worse.
The Problem with Holden 6's is that the pressure from the bearing crush and the engine loading stretches the caps.
This means without remedial work all Holden 6's will have a minimum of 003 with new bearings, 004 is the maxium and it doesn't take much work before the bearings wear .001.
I have over 100 Holden engines here and not one has the correct main bearing tunnel size, even original one owner unthrashed, original bore engines have the main bearing cap stretch problem, I get my engine main bearing bores bored out now when ever I do an engine and the clearances are good ( 001 ).
The Holden/VDO electric oil pressure gauges can fail also, over the years I had two fail on me and they did what you describe by reading lower than they should, I put this down to the high volume oil pump I was using over stressing the sender unit when the oil was cold.
One time I had the cam gear oil squirter come out and the oil presserure droped drimatically.
Nowdays have to resize my old ones when I do an engine as I don't think anyone is making them now.
Hope this helps,
Mike
this has an effect on oil pressere.
If a Holden 6 has not had the main bearing tunnels bored out in the recon phase then there is no way the bearing clearance will be anywhere near the .001 clearance it should be, bearing wear makes the situation worse.
The Problem with Holden 6's is that the pressure from the bearing crush and the engine loading stretches the caps.
This means without remedial work all Holden 6's will have a minimum of 003 with new bearings, 004 is the maxium and it doesn't take much work before the bearings wear .001.
I have over 100 Holden engines here and not one has the correct main bearing tunnel size, even original one owner unthrashed, original bore engines have the main bearing cap stretch problem, I get my engine main bearing bores bored out now when ever I do an engine and the clearances are good ( 001 ).
The Holden/VDO electric oil pressure gauges can fail also, over the years I had two fail on me and they did what you describe by reading lower than they should, I put this down to the high volume oil pump I was using over stressing the sender unit when the oil was cold.
One time I had the cam gear oil squirter come out and the oil presserure droped drimatically.
Nowdays have to resize my old ones when I do an engine as I don't think anyone is making them now.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Edited by Mike73, 08 December 2010 - 02:53 PM.
#11
_Drag lc_
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:36 PM
.001 clearance it should be, bearing wear makes the situation worse.
i would imagine that sort clearance would only be found on a stocker?.yes i found out the hard way.heheyeah i second what warren said.
we used to use hpr 40 had no dramas.
now use hpr 50 with the suitable clearances.
#12
_CHOPPER_
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 12:07 AM
How accurate is the gauge?
Maybe a simple switch to 40w is needed.
+1 The first thing I would try is to use a known good sender and aftermarket gauge.
#13
_nicko61_
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:57 AM
my mates workshop has a Moroso oil pressure gauge they hook up to cars that have low readings just to check as gauges often give inaccurate readings, we have found the Speco brand gauges to be particually bad,some not even working out of the box,same goes for temp gauges ,they vary wildly from correct reading ,so a heat gauge gun is a must in workshop also.
Its more often than not that clearances on a fresh motor can be a little big giving low pressure,
but as always the KISS (keep it simple stupid)system is the first call for your checks before panicking and tearing engines down.
Its more often than not that clearances on a fresh motor can be a little big giving low pressure,
but as always the KISS (keep it simple stupid)system is the first call for your checks before panicking and tearing engines down.
Edited by nicko61, 09 December 2010 - 07:01 AM.
#14
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 07:52 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys.
I Did have a bottle of HPR 40 sitting there, but decided to put in the 30 for some reason. The pump was previously used and I suppose I should probably put a new one one, and possibly modify the relief valve as suggested.
Should I go with a JP high volume, or a standard replacement?
I will also go back to HPR 40 as the engine does get pretty hot with the 11.2:1 compression. The block was tunnel bored and all clearanced etc so hopefully this is not an issue.
I had already fitted a brand new sender unit (to original dash guage) - although this was a Speco item.
I have a mechanical guage sitting in the shed (good quality that screws into the block and read from engine bay) I think I should check it with this at least...
Provided I can increase the pressure a little oil change, oil pump etc, what should the minimum value be for hot oil pressure at idle and speed before I should worry?
Cheers
I Did have a bottle of HPR 40 sitting there, but decided to put in the 30 for some reason. The pump was previously used and I suppose I should probably put a new one one, and possibly modify the relief valve as suggested.
Should I go with a JP high volume, or a standard replacement?
I will also go back to HPR 40 as the engine does get pretty hot with the 11.2:1 compression. The block was tunnel bored and all clearanced etc so hopefully this is not an issue.
I had already fitted a brand new sender unit (to original dash guage) - although this was a Speco item.
I have a mechanical guage sitting in the shed (good quality that screws into the block and read from engine bay) I think I should check it with this at least...
Provided I can increase the pressure a little oil change, oil pump etc, what should the minimum value be for hot oil pressure at idle and speed before I should worry?
Cheers
#15
TerrA LX
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:30 AM
With these old motors we used to go on 10psi per 1000rpm seems to work well.
Remember more pressure does not equal more flow.
Remember more pressure does not equal more flow.
#16
_uglybob_
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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:29 PM
I reckon less than 10 at idle hot is something to worry about give or take one or two depending how high or low you set the idle. You have pretty good max pressure though so bumping up the relief in the pump is not going to achieve squat. New pump is cheap insurance I say they aren't dear. The biggest thing is making sure you use the right viscosity oil for the clearances you have most machine shops will make them a little loose side if your trying to build something your goin to rev a bit.. Who uses .001 on main bearings by the way?
That's my two cents good luck man
That's my two cents good luck man
#17
warrenm
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Posted 11 December 2010 - 06:22 AM
I wouldn't bother with a High Volume pump, a std will supply more than enough for your needs.
#20
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Posted 11 December 2010 - 07:31 PM
^^^+3.
Be careful using a high volume oil pump if you don't have an increased capacity sump.
Don't know how true this is, I've heard stories about all the oil being pumped up to the top of the engine at high revs and not much left in the sump so the bottom end gets starved.
Can anyone with 1st hand experience confirm.
Be careful using a high volume oil pump if you don't have an increased capacity sump.
Don't know how true this is, I've heard stories about all the oil being pumped up to the top of the engine at high revs and not much left in the sump so the bottom end gets starved.
Can anyone with 1st hand experience confirm.
#21
_2ELCS_
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Posted 11 December 2010 - 08:04 PM
^^^^They usually fill the tappet cover up with oil, then throw it all over the engine bay,so there can,t be much left where its supposed to be???
High volume oil pumps make good paper weights..
High volume oil pumps make good paper weights..
Edited by 2ELCS, 11 December 2010 - 08:04 PM.
#22
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 09:46 AM
So a quick change to HPR 40 oil and fitting a mechanical gauge is showing hot around 17 psi at 850-900 idle. 1500 rpm is 30psi, jumps to 40psi at 3000 rpm.
From what I understand this is slightly down but acceptable.
I have not changed the oil pump yet, but it is on the agenda - will make a couple of mods to spring also.
The current pump is a JP HV running with a high energy sump.
Do these figures sound about right?
From what I understand this is slightly down but acceptable.
I have not changed the oil pump yet, but it is on the agenda - will make a couple of mods to spring also.
The current pump is a JP HV running with a high energy sump.
Do these figures sound about right?
#24
_NZ Toranaman_
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 03:57 PM
So a quick change to HPR 40 oil and fitting a mechanical gauge is showing hot around 17 psi at 850-900 idle. 1500 rpm is 30psi, jumps to 40psi at 3000 rpm.
From what I understand this is slightly down but acceptable.
I have not changed the oil pump yet, but it is on the agenda - will make a couple of mods to spring also.
The current pump is a JP HV running with a high energy sump.
Do these figures sound about right?
Thats identicle to mine and I run 20/50
#25
_PeteXU1_
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Posted 15 December 2010 - 09:53 PM
Great.
I also spoke with a fella who races Group NC in an XU1 and apparently this is pretty normal - so I'm happy now!
Thanks for the input.
I also spoke with a fella who races Group NC in an XU1 and apparently this is pretty normal - so I'm happy now!
Thanks for the input.
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