25 replies to this topic

[UCgazman]

I've been chasing an ecu for the 5lt I'm putting in the UC, and I wanted to confirm a few things I've heard, hopefully with someone that's done it before.

1. The V6 & V8 ecu's are the same, its just the memcals that are different - so I could use one of the old v6 ecu's kickin around in the shed, swap the memcal for an $80 5lt performance one off ebay, and it'll work?

2. There's no difference between auto and manual ecu's, at least for VN/VP. (why have a label on them that says auto or manual then?)

3. VN, VQ & VP ecu's are all the same - my engine is from a VP, but VN ecu's are easier to find...

I can google all of this but there's a lot of bs and contradiction out there so I rather hear from experts or people that have tried it and know from experience...

[yel327]

1. True. Camira as well.

2. You'll find the auto and manual memcals are slightly different in spark and fuel maps for VN-VP.

3. 808 VN, VQ ECU's are the same. At some stage they changed to one with a higher external comms rate.

If you get an aftermarket memcal see if you can get them to program it to do a few things for you:

Adjust the ppk constant to suit your tyre diameter and diff ratio. Work it out as tailshaft revs at a given road speed, and figure out what % your combo will be compared to a standard VN. Example if ppk of VN memcal is 15000 and say VN wheels and 3.08 diff is 100%, if your combo is 110% (ie 10% more tailshaft rpm compared to VN) then make ppk = 15000 x 110%.

Change the ppk count to suit a 10 pulse per rev speed sensor if you want the factory speed sensor off a T-piece.

Turn on the electric fan relay to control a thermo fan if you have one at whatever temperature cut in and out you want. This will operate based upon the engine temperature sensor that goes into the ECU. Basically how a V6 works, but not turned on in V8 as it has a viscous fan.

[76lxhatch]

Only JD TBI and JE TPI Camiras used the Delco, earlier injected models had a Bosch system which is completely different. N13 Pulsar and LD Astra also used the Delco (there was a 4 cylinder VN over here too)

Absolutely the VN/VP ECUs are all 100% interchangeable with the only difference being the memcal as above, but then there were lots of different memcals with different tunes on the chips as well (there are resistor packs on the memcal itself which control cylinder select etc and the V6s and HSV V8s have knock sensor circuity).

The ECUs with the high speed comms mentioned by yel327 are VR and VS manual ECUs. These are slightly different to the earlier '808s and you need one to run a VR or VS with the standard VR/VS BCM setup, but they are entirely interchangeable with VN and VP. You need to run the tune designed for the wiring and sensors of the vehicle or make minor modifications (i.e. you can run a VR manual ECU in a VN but without other changes you'd use the VN tune).

End result is yes you can take a V6 ECU, plug it into the VP wiring loom and install a V8 memcal/tune and you are good to go. Some of that eBay stuff is crap though, shop carefully - if they don't know what you mean by simple things like the PPK changes above (or they don't even ask!) then find someone else.

A good source of informed knowledge on these is www.delcohacking.net - you'll probably find someone willing to help you with a decent tune there too.

[UCgazman]

Perfect! that's what I needed to know. I think I'll just rechip a V6 one and save some hassle and $$'s. I've been purposely avoiding VR-VS stuff so I dont have to muck around with the bcm, and I'll be asking a lot of questions before buying if I go for an ebay memcal - The motor is gonna stay pretty stock for a while so even a standard chip will do...

[rodomo]

(there was a 4 cylinder VN over here too)

What engine was fitted to this beast?

[yel327]

Perfect! that's what I needed to know. I think I'll just rechip a V6 one and save some hassle and $$'s. I've been purposely avoiding VR-VS stuff so I dont have to muck around with the bcm, and I'll be asking a lot of questions before buying if I go for an ebay memcal - The motor is gonna stay pretty stock for a while so even a standard chip will do...

If you are going to get a new Memcal anyway (to fix speedo etc), then just get the person modding it to turn the BCM input off in a VR-VS memcal. It isn't hard to do, just changing a 1 to a 0 in 2 x places in the code from memory (been a few years since I did one).

[76lxhatch]

If you get a VR/VS memcal and put it into a VN/VP ECU you will have no diagnostic output other than counting the CEL flashes. If you were going to do this you'd be better off buying one of the '808 high speed comms mods from DelcoHacking and running a $12P tune which gives you the VR/VS goodies like lean cruise etc and more. Otherwise its easiest to stick to a VN/VP tune to match your hardware - if its standard then its trivial to sort the PPK in a standard Holden tune and write that to a chip and you know you'll have a decent tune which doesn't suck fuel at a ridiculous rate and will look after the engine.

(there was a 4 cylinder VN over here too)

What engine was fitted to this beast?

Pretty sure it was the same as the JE Camira 2L, they go surprisingly well (for what they are)

[Dr Terry]

Yes, the VN 4-cyl was a 10:1 compression version of the 2 litre JE Camira engine, but had Bosch Motronic injection, not Delco.

Export Commodores (including NZ cars) had a few odd engines. They had a 4-cyl VK (same engine as VC/VH 4), 2850 VK, 2 litre (RB20-E) 6-cyl VL & the 2 litre VN.

Other export territories got 2.6 Opel 6-cyl in VP/VR, 2.5 (Vectra) V6 in VS & 2.8 Alloytec V6 in WM Statesman & Caprice

The VC/VH/VK 4-cyl cars used Torana wheel stud pattern & 13" wheels. I believe the VN 4-cyl used the 'normal' Commodore stud pattern & 14" wheels.

Dr Terry

[76lxhatch]

Yes, the VN 4-cyl was a 10:1 compression version of the 2 litre JE Camira engine, but had Bosch Motronic injection, not Delco.

Are you sure? The early JD Camira (1.8?) had that but I'm pretty sure the four cylinder VNs here have the Delco multi point, its a lot closer to the same era...?

[TerrA LX]

FYI not all PCM/ECU 100% interchange model for model, radio shielded police pack had a different wiring loom connector to the standard non shielded PCM/ECU, it can be easily modified to fit tho.

Yes, the VN 4-cyl was a 10:1 compression version of the 2 litre JE Camira engine, but had Bosch Motronic injection, not Delco.

Dr Terry

What box were they using?

[76lxhatch]

Well the connector under the shielding is the same but yeah OK I'll give you that one

Good question on the boxes, all the ones I've seen were a 5 speed manual - can't recall seeing an auto but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Of course the Camira was front wheel drive so unlikely to be the same unit, maybe some left over M76 type Borg Warners (used on the 4 and 6 cyl VH and VK)? I'm only guessing here

Edited by 76lxhatch, 10 August 2011 - 12:47 PM.

[Dr Terry]

Yes, the VN 4-cyl was a 10:1 compression version of the 2 litre JE Camira engine, but had Bosch Motronic injection, not Delco.

Are you sure? The early JD Camira (1.8?) had that but I'm pretty sure the four cylinder VNs here have the Delco multi point, its a lot closer to the same era...?

Yes, I am positive they had Bosch Motronic EFI, I've repaired a few of their ECUs. The whole set-up is from Europe where they use the 2 litre motors in the RWD Opels & Vauxhalls. Holden didn't have to develop anything, it was already done for them. It would not have been worth it for such a small run.

The Bosch system on leaded petrol JDs was the old LE2 Jectronic similar to VK 6-cyl, they were a very basic system that controlled injection pulse only. Motronic systems control both spark & injection, similar to Delco systems.

The transmissions for the VN 4-cyl were the Getrag R25 5-sp manual & Aisin Warner 03-71L 4-sp automatic.

All of this info is in my book.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

FYI not all PCM/ECU 100% interchange model for model, radio shielded police pack had a different wiring loom connector to the standard non shielded PCM/ECU, it can be easily modified to fit tho.

The radio shielded ECUs were only used in some VR & VS Commodores, all VN/VQ/VG/VP/JE/LD ECUs were the same unit (1227808)

Dr Terry

[76lxhatch]

Yes, the VN 4-cyl was a 10:1 compression version of the 2 litre JE Camira engine, but had Bosch Motronic injection, not Delco.

Are you sure? The early JD Camira (1.8?) had that but I'm pretty sure the four cylinder VNs here have the Delco multi point, its a lot closer to the same era...?

Yes, I am positive they had Bosch Motronic EFI, I've repaired a few of their ECUs. The whole set-up is from Europe where they use the 2 litre motors in the RWD Opels & Vauxhalls. Holden didn't have to develop anything, it was already done for them. It would not have been worth it for such a small run.

The Bosch system on leaded petrol JDs was the old LE2 Jectronic similar to VK 6-cyl, they were a very basic system that controlled injection pulse only. Motronic systems control both spark & injection, similar to Delco systems.

The transmissions for the VN 4-cyl were the Getrag R25 5-sp manual & Aisin Warner 03-71L 4-sp automatic.

All of this info is in my book.

Dr Terry

Ah sorry Motronic/Jetronic got me confused (I was thinking Jetronic as with VK like you say). Seems strange that the JE used the Delco while the exact same engine in the VN used the Bosch, would have been simpler to keep 99% of the VN wiring and setup too...

So that brings up another silly question then - if the four cylinder VN got the Motronic presumably because it had to run unleaded (most of our VNs ran permanent open loop because of the leaded fuel at the time), did some of our JE Camiras get the same? Or were they forced to be unleaded only when it was hard to get? (Were they sold NZ new?)

[UCgazman]

If you are going to get a new Memcal anyway (to fix speedo etc), then just get the person modding it to turn the BCM input off in a VR-VS memcal. It isn't hard to do, just changing a 1 to a 0 in 2 x places in the code from memory (been a few years since I did one).

If you get a VR/VS memcal and put it into a VN/VP ECU you will have no diagnostic output other than counting the CEL flashes. If you were going to do this you'd be better off buying one of the '808 high speed comms mods from DelcoHacking and running a $12P tune which gives you the VR/VS goodies like lean cruise etc and more. Otherwise its easiest to stick to a VN/VP tune to match your hardware - if its standard then its trivial to sort the PPK in a standard Holden tune and write that to a chip and you know you'll have a decent tune which doesn't suck fuel at a ridiculous rate and will look after the engine.

I wasn't going to get a new memcal originally, I was just going to source a 5lt ecu from a wreckers, that's why I had it in my head to avoid VR/VS stuff. However wrecking yards in Perth seem to think its still 1995 and they can charge $220 for one...
I've got a few VN V6 ecu's left over from previous conversions and I'd rather spend the money on a performance memcal for one of these anyway. I'm already running a 3.08 diff and if the rolling diameter of the rear wheels is close to a stock Commo then the standard PPK setting should be ok? or will a small adjustment make a big difference in power/consumption?

oh, and a 4cyl VN sounds like a beast

Edited by UCgazman, 10 August 2011 - 03:33 PM.

[76lxhatch]

The standard PPK will be fine with 3.08 diff and standard rolling diameter, but you must run through the original dash circuitry which divides the signal by 5 so you get 2 pulses per revolution instead of 10. The PPK is used to determine the road speed for converter lockup, speed cutout etc. The only possible issue is that most 'performance' chip guys will want an exchange memcal, they may accept a V6 one if you're lucky (they can be converted but not everyone is interested in changing them).

[UCgazman]

...but you must run through the original dash circuitry which divides the signal by 5 so you get 2 pulses per revolution instead of 10.

Umm, is this for the speedo? I've done plenty of V6 conversions before and never needed anything from the Commo dash. I just use an inline vss from Pat Gardner...

[yel327]

The aftermarket inline speed sensor is 2 pulse per rev so doesn't need the divide by 5 conversion in the dash (original speed sensor is 10 pulse). VR-VS UCU takes the 10 pulse signal directly.

[76lxhatch]

^ Its not the ECU, its the program on the chip, but yeah. I didn't realise you weren't using the factory VSS so disregard that statement as above

[UCgazman]

Ok gotcha. I use those aftermarket vss's because they're just easier - plug n play.

[yel327]

^ Its not the ECU, its the program on the chip, but yeah. I didn't realise you weren't using the factory VSS so disregard that statement as above

We are talking the same thing, but it is the ECU that takes the VSS signal, the Memcal program tells the ECU how to interpret the signal.

[76lxhatch]

Yeah yeah OK fair enough I was just following the interchangeability theme, e.g. both VR manual and VN ECUs will give the same result with the same memcal and its the tune that must be altered to suit the VSS. The ECU takes all signals and the memcal tells it how to do almost everything, now how should I put my foot in my mouth next...?

[rodomo]

O.K..................Back on topic..................Does anyone have a pic of the Camira motor in a VN engine bay?
Or is it too far back to get a good pic?

[Dr Terry]

O.K..................Back on topic..................Does anyone have a pic of the Camira motor in a VN engine bay?
Or is it too far back to get a good pic?

But the topic is VN/VP/VR/VS ECUs & memcals !!

Seriously though, I have the factory workshop manual for the VN 4 & a couple of sales brochures, there should be a pic in there somewhere. All I have to do know is learn how to post a pic.

The one thing I do know about the Camira motor RWD installation, is that the plastic water pipe which normally sits on the side (back) of the engine block (FWD) is now fitted to the engine bay side panel.

Dr Terry