G'day guys,
I'm wondering if anyone can give me pointers on this. The 202 in my VK has taken a couple of seconds of running to get oil pressure on cold starts since I put it in over a year ago. And for those first couple of seconds running on every cold start it makes a farily unhealthy 'tappety' kind of noise and goes away once the gauge registers oil pressure.
As it's a cheap engine and easy enough to replace if it goes bang, I've just put up with it but I've got some other priorities out of the way now and want to fix it.
Before I go pulling the oil pump apart and inspecting it can anyone suggest what might be possibly causing this delayed oil pressure?
Could it simply be wear in the pump and therefore excessive clearance between the rotors?
Or could the clearance between the rotor and pump cover be too great?
I run a 20W 50 grade of oil, which I thought was appropriate for this engine as I'd fitted new rings and bearings whilst it was apart.
Any other reasons to look for why my engine is slow to get oil pressure?
Thanks, Mick
202 delayed oil pressure on startup
Started by
_mick74lh_
, Aug 10 2012 04:15 PM
51 replies to this topic
#2
orangeLJ
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:30 PM
What oil filter are you running on the thing?
If its a cheapy with no anti-drain back valve, then the filter will be emptying itself when turned off, then having to re-fill before flicking oil to the top end.
Do you wind it over a bit before giving the pedal a pump to start it?
If its a cheapy with no anti-drain back valve, then the filter will be emptying itself when turned off, then having to re-fill before flicking oil to the top end.
Do you wind it over a bit before giving the pedal a pump to start it?
#3
greens nice
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:24 PM
does your oil pressure guage have the little nylon tubing connecting the guage to oil pressure?
Edited by greens nice, 10 August 2012 - 06:24 PM.
#4
_Red GTR_
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:31 PM
Hi Mick
I had this exact same problem only last week.. I thought my oil pump rotors were past it..
Before i went & got dirty & removed the pump, I replaced the oil filter.. That Fixed it... Faulty anty-drain back valve???
May not be your problem but it was a cheap filter!!
Paul
I had this exact same problem only last week.. I thought my oil pump rotors were past it..
Before i went & got dirty & removed the pump, I replaced the oil filter.. That Fixed it... Faulty anty-drain back valve???
May not be your problem but it was a cheap filter!!
Paul
#5
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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:06 PM
She'll be right! It's a Holden (dinasour) six.
#6
_mick74lh_
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:11 AM
Thanks for the feedback fellas.
Chris and Paul, I'm running a Ryco Z90 filter, which as far as I know has an anti drain back valve. I havent yet heard a bad word about Ryco filters, however it could be possible that the anti drain back valve is not functioning???
Its due for a change of oil and filter now, so I may just change both for now and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, then later in the year will pull off the oil pump and investigate properly.
Kevin, I'm running the factory oil pressure gauge, so it's accuracy is possibly questionable. Its an electric (resistive?) connection, not mechanical, however the pressure registering on the gauge always corresponds with the nasty engine clacking going away, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is telling the truth about the lack of oil pressure for those first few seconds of running. Where was that question leading though? What effect could the nylon connection you speak of have?
Rodomo, you're probably right! haha. It's just one of those things I wouldn't mind fixing though cos the way it clacks for the first few seconds of cold running makes it sound like I'm driving a bucket of shit. Puts me in a bad mood first thing in the morning! Haha
Anyway I'll change the oil and filter first. If they make no difference then I'll have to dig deeper on the next change. Any other suggestions?
Chris and Paul, I'm running a Ryco Z90 filter, which as far as I know has an anti drain back valve. I havent yet heard a bad word about Ryco filters, however it could be possible that the anti drain back valve is not functioning???
Its due for a change of oil and filter now, so I may just change both for now and see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, then later in the year will pull off the oil pump and investigate properly.
Kevin, I'm running the factory oil pressure gauge, so it's accuracy is possibly questionable. Its an electric (resistive?) connection, not mechanical, however the pressure registering on the gauge always corresponds with the nasty engine clacking going away, so I'm pretty sure the gauge is telling the truth about the lack of oil pressure for those first few seconds of running. Where was that question leading though? What effect could the nylon connection you speak of have?
Rodomo, you're probably right! haha. It's just one of those things I wouldn't mind fixing though cos the way it clacks for the first few seconds of cold running makes it sound like I'm driving a bucket of shit. Puts me in a bad mood first thing in the morning! Haha
Anyway I'll change the oil and filter first. If they make no difference then I'll have to dig deeper on the next change. Any other suggestions?
#7
orangeLJ
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 06:21 AM
Yeah, ryco have the adbv.
Definitely sounds like slmething is leaking down when not running, maybe a switch on the main power to tt he coil, that is, if the oil pressure will come up by winding it over
Definitely sounds like slmething is leaking down when not running, maybe a switch on the main power to tt he coil, that is, if the oil pressure will come up by winding it over
Edited by orangeLJ, 11 August 2012 - 06:23 AM.
#8
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:49 AM
Ah right I get what you mean Chris. Yeah but I shouldn't really have to wind it over for ages just for the sake of getting oil pressure.
It does seem like its leaking down when not running. In the case of a healthy oil pump, shouldn't the pump itself hold oil when not running?
I'll try replacing the oil and filter. If that makes no difference then I'll know to dig deeper.
It does seem like its leaking down when not running. In the case of a healthy oil pump, shouldn't the pump itself hold oil when not running?
I'll try replacing the oil and filter. If that makes no difference then I'll know to dig deeper.
#9
_tryhard_
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:21 PM
worn cam bearings can do the same thing as you described
#10
greens nice
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:24 PM
the nylon tubing with mech guages can take a long time for oil to travel through them because the id of the tube is so small, that's all.
#11
_Quagmire_
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:49 PM
if it bothers you that much add a oil friction modifier like lucas...
in theory they stick to the moving parts when the motor is not running
i'd avoid magintec by castrol sposed to have the same thing in it's oil...but i only ever had trouble with the crap
maybe try a 15/40 oil as well....20 weight takes a few seconds to build pressure when cold
in theory they stick to the moving parts when the motor is not running
i'd avoid magintec by castrol sposed to have the same thing in it's oil...but i only ever had trouble with the crap
maybe try a 15/40 oil as well....20 weight takes a few seconds to build pressure when cold
#12
_bathurst-racer_
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:05 PM
There has been a batch of Ryco Z30 filters made without the anti drainback valve. I bought one from Supercheap a while ago and my HQ rattled like a bastard. Like everyone else I have never had a drama with Ryco filters until this time.
#15
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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:41 PM
Simmilar.
Fleetguard is just down the road from work so goes on everything for meeeee.
Cheers.
Fleetguard is just down the road from work so goes on everything for meeeee.
Cheers.
#16
orangeLJ
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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:28 AM
I used to work for Donaldson filters lol.
For most of our applications, as long as it has an ADV, it will be fine, we dont need (nor really want) the micron filtration that some of those higher specced filters provide.
p.s. I ran donaldson filters for a while.... they are great when they are freeeeee!
For most of our applications, as long as it has an ADV, it will be fine, we dont need (nor really want) the micron filtration that some of those higher specced filters provide.
p.s. I ran donaldson filters for a while.... they are great when they are freeeeee!
#17
_mick74lh_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:46 PM
Thanks again for the suggestions.
Cheers Kevin, that makes sense about the mechanical line.
I've got a Ryco Z30 sitting there ready to go when I'm ready. I was planning to do it last weekend but ended up finishing and fitting my rebuilt gearbox to the Torana.
Not that I'm losing sleep over this. It'd just be nice to fix. Aside from the batch of Rycos mentioned that were missing the ADV, they should be okay so I plan to keep using them.
Quagmire, I was thinking that a thinner grade of oil would only exacerbate the problem???
Cheers Kevin, that makes sense about the mechanical line.
I've got a Ryco Z30 sitting there ready to go when I'm ready. I was planning to do it last weekend but ended up finishing and fitting my rebuilt gearbox to the Torana.
Not that I'm losing sleep over this. It'd just be nice to fix. Aside from the batch of Rycos mentioned that were missing the ADV, they should be okay so I plan to keep using them.
Quagmire, I was thinking that a thinner grade of oil would only exacerbate the problem???
#18
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:06 PM
This problem is generally created because of the use of an after market oil filter instead of the recommended factory brand. The after market filter such as those available from reputable makers at supercheap have a higher bypass pressure than the fractory filters.
This means more of the oil gets filtered than a factory filter. When the oil is cold it is thicker than when it is warm (Viscosity) therefore it takes longer to pass through the filter medium and then onto the camshaft rockers. The factory filter has a lower bypass pressure so that even when the oil is thick it still gets to the critical components. Better some oil that has been unfiltered than none at all. Even the most expensive car engine in world starts with zero oil pressure. There are pages and pages of info in relation to filter flow this is the main concern.
This means more of the oil gets filtered than a factory filter. When the oil is cold it is thicker than when it is warm (Viscosity) therefore it takes longer to pass through the filter medium and then onto the camshaft rockers. The factory filter has a lower bypass pressure so that even when the oil is thick it still gets to the critical components. Better some oil that has been unfiltered than none at all. Even the most expensive car engine in world starts with zero oil pressure. There are pages and pages of info in relation to filter flow this is the main concern.
#19
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:30 PM
I was under the impression the bypass was in the oil pump not the filter?
#20
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:35 PM
I was under the impression the bypass was in the oil pump not the filter?
^^^ I'm with you Bomber, but hey, all the Holden workshop manuals must have it wrong. LOL.
Personally I've never noticed any discernible difference in the oil pressure (hot or cold) whether using a Genuine Holden filter, a Ryco or a Valvoline.
#21
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 08:38 PM
Not just the workshop manuals, but the 20 or so oil pumps i have on the shelf about five meters away to lol. Must be rare factory mis casts.
#22
_torbirdie_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:31 PM
News to me about a bypass valve within the filter, butThis problem is generally created because of the use of an after market oil filter instead of the recommended factory brand. The after market filter such as those available from reputable makers at supercheap have a higher bypass pressure than the fractory filters.
This means more of the oil gets filtered than a factory filter. When the oil is cold it is thicker than when it is warm (Viscosity) therefore it takes longer to pass through the filter medium and then onto the camshaft rockers. The factory filter has a lower bypass pressure so that even when the oil is thick it still gets to the critical components. Better some oil that has been unfiltered than none at all. Even the most expensive car engine in world starts with zero oil pressure. There are pages and pages of info in relation to filter flow this is the main concern.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=oil+filter+bypass+valve&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#biv=i|0;d|cAWjssdgeUNslM:I was under the impression the bypass was in the oil pump not the filter?
Oil pump has a bypass too
#23
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:32 PM
Well there ya go, i thought that was the anti drain back valve.
Shows what i know!!
Shows what i know!!
#24
_torbirdie_
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:32 PM
This problem is generally created because of the use of an after market oil filter instead of the recommended factory brand. The after market filter such as those available from reputable makers at supercheap have a higher bypass pressure than the fractory filters.
This means more of the oil gets filtered than a factory filter. When the oil is cold it is thicker than when it is warm (Viscosity) therefore it takes longer to pass through the filter medium and then onto the camshaft rockers. The factory filter has a lower bypass pressure so that even when the oil is thick it still gets to the critical components. Better some oil that has been unfiltered than none at all. Even the most expensive car engine in world starts with zero oil pressure. There are pages and pages of info in relation to filter flow this is the main concern.
I'll take your word for it that the by pass pressure maybe higher for the aftermarket filters, but that doesn't explain the problem the op has. If it was restricted flow through the filter due to the higher bypass pressure when cold then this would show up on the oil pressure gauge as highe pressure, but he op reports the opposite.
Edited by torbirdie, 14 August 2012 - 09:37 PM.
#25
S pack
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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:43 PM
Oil filters for Holden engines, grey, red, blue and black ones at least, don't have a built in bypass valve, only the anti drain back valve.
The only filter bypass valve is the one installed in the oil pump and it unseats at a 9 -11 PSI pressure differential between the output pressure of the pump (pre filter) and the oil galleries (post filter).
The only filter bypass valve is the one installed in the oil pump and it unseats at a 9 -11 PSI pressure differential between the output pressure of the pump (pre filter) and the oil galleries (post filter).
Edited by S pack, 14 August 2012 - 09:46 PM.
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