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LH - LX Big Brakes

Started by _ToranaL67_ , Aug 11 2012 09:24 PM

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51 replies to this topic

#1 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:24 PM

What you are looking at is a LX Hatchback Sunbird that has had the RTS 4 cylinder engine mounted K-frame removed and replaced with a LH non RTS K-frame.

IMAG0250.jpg 226.58K 15 downloads

Standard LX Disc stub axles and stearing arms are used including upper and lower control arms, also a fully reconditioned steering rack, ball joints etc.
Hubs, 330 x 28 rotors and AU twin piston calipers are from the UPC company online (good comments hard to find) and rightly so as they foul on front end components.
This I have demonstrated with a piece of paper to show the clearance or lack of between the caliper and the bump stop. (wheels pointing straight ahead!)

IMAG0251.jpg 146.01K 11 downloads

Cutting away of any metal is not an option.

This is the brake package I wish to run but won't fit .... SUGGESTIONS ????????

Edited by ToranaL67, 11 August 2012 - 09:34 PM.

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#2 dattoman

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Name:Neil
Location:Perth Western Australia
Car:LX SS , 76 Cadillac , 3 x dattos
Joined: 04-February 07

Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:39 PM

I think you will find they are actually VE calipers sourced from HSV surplus when they take stock brakes off to fit the AP's
And they should be on a 30mm thick disc

The concept is good... the execution maybe not so
I've used a similar disc on Toranas before with AP 4 pot and even Brembo calipers... but I'd have to check with their owners on clearances

The bigger you go with the discs... the more room you have... hence Jeffs 380mm monsters have plenty of room

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#3 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:08 PM

Hello Neil and thank you for responding, had hoped I could get some assistance from you and Jeff as left on his lenghty and fabulous thread.

I believe whatever you say they are as I have no idea and intend doing some measurements on a mates 290 pursuit with Brembos on Wednesday.
You see what I am looking for is the measurement from centre of the edge of the disc to the furtherest point on the caliper back to reduce the so called lump that hangs on the back.

I also think the hat could be smaller so as to bring the actual disc outward creating more clearance.

AL

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#4 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:25 PM

Current setup will be running 18 x 8 Monaro/Pontiac rims with the 42-45 offset which is approx 53-54 inches track width as opposed to 55.1 inches standard track as per the LH Torana service manual.
Putting 235/40/18 will give me a rolling diameter the same as A9X (644mm)

Everything ads up ..... I just can't turn ... bluddy el.

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#5 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:31 PM

The A9X ( and L34 ) ran a DR70H14, which is the equivelany of a 195/70R14. They have a rolling diameter of around 625mm.

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#6 dattoman

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Name:Neil
Location:Perth Western Australia
Car:LX SS , 76 Cadillac , 3 x dattos
Joined: 04-February 07

Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:18 PM

A shallower disc will give you more room... as long as your wheels have the clearance to get around the caliper
Hoppers etc usually use a AU2 or BA disc on their Torana kits which are alot shallower than the Commodore ones pictured... I guess thats the reason why
Jeff''s are big.. .and shallow.. .and he has wheels to suit
Most people like their big disc wheels though and these tend not to have alot of clearance

Even worse when you go 4 pot calipers as they need alot more clearance

As per this pic
Posted Image

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#7 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:04 PM

Jeff''s are big.. .and shallow.. .

Since when did this forum become R rated ? :unsure:

As for mine, I started out with the wheels first, and built everything around suiting them.

There are a ton of different rotors out there, and figuring out which ones to use can be a little daunting, but there are ways to narrow it down. I didn't have any engineer rules to worry about either of course, but I did build it safe and durable in my eyes obviously.

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#8 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:12 PM

And... I had started out with one of those dopey UPS kits that don't fit any Torana known to man as well....got a setup for nothing and had no idea at the time of thier list of problems of not fitting.

I still have the brand new rotors and calipers on the shelf in the shed, along with a bunch of other Brembo (and PBR) calipers.

I did trim the bump stop area on my K frame though, it didn't fuss me at all to do it, and plated it back in with plenty thick material so it'll be fine.

I started then with the UPC hubs and my wheels to figure out rotors to give clearance to the 4 piston Brembo's I had picked up. And then later it just worked out nicely that the 8 piston ones bolted right into place on the caliper mounts I had made and clear the wheels just fine as well.

When I had started out looking into rotors, I thought of using the Mopar SRT8 rotors to match the calipers I had (which were brand new take off SRT8 Challenger units) but the rotor height was wrong to allow the calipers to clear my wheels. Then I tried a Corvette rotor..it was even worse than the Dodge rotors. Then I started looking around online at a number of various rotors in the 14" - 14.5" or so diameter range. I was not concerned about bolt pattern since I knew it would be easy enough to redrill the rotors, so I looked at all different makes of cars that came with "big" brakes.

Eventually coming across the Mercedes ones I ended up using. I know when ever they need to be changed I will have to get them redrilled, but it's no worries really.

Looking back, if I would have known, I would have just got the hubs drilled to the Mercedes bolt pattern and had my wheels inserted to that. (as it was, I had to have them inserted to 5 on 4.75 since they were originally designed for 911 Cup cars, hence having plenty of brake clearance actually as well)

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#9 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:40 PM

The A9X ( and L34 ) ran a DR70H14, which is the equivelany of a 195/70R14. They have a rolling diameter of around 625mm.

Not doubting you Chopper but had it (644mm) in my head since the local tyre guy checked his good book.
Will double check now ... Thanks Muchley!

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#10 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 09:55 PM

A shallower disc will give you more room... as long as your wheels have the clearance to get around the caliper
Hoppers etc usually use a AU2 or BA disc on their Torana kits which are alot shallower than the Commodore ones pictured... I guess thats the reason why
Jeff''s are big.. .and shallow.. .and he has wheels to suit
Most people like their big disc wheels though and these tend not to have alot of clearance

Even worse when you go 4 pot calipers as they need alot more clearance

As per this pic

Neil !!! ..... lets say ..... if you decided to change your LH Sedan to a 330 rotor (front) would this combination DBA rotor and AP/Brembo 4 spot be your dream choice ??????
I know the wheel is important and lets just say its perfect.

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#11 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

Not doubting you Chopper but had it (644mm) in my head since the local tyre guy checked his good book.
Will double check now ... Thanks Muchley!

My figure was based on being in the tyre industry since 1982. Also, GMH quoted a rolling diameter of the tyre at 1.9636 metres. Divide that by Pi ( 3.14159 ) and we get 625mm. But if rego will accept 644mm, then all the better.

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#12 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:16 PM

A shallower disc will give you more room... as long as your wheels have the clearance to get around the caliper
Hoppers etc usually use a AU2 or BA disc on their Torana kits which are alot shallower than the Commodore ones pictured... I guess thats the reason why
Jeff''s are big.. .and shallow.. .and he has wheels to suit
Most people like their big disc wheels though and these tend not to have alot of clearance

Even worse when you go 4 pot calipers as they need alot more clearance

As per this pic

Have you got more templates like that around?

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#13 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:28 PM

Since when did this forum become R rated ?

Don't take it to heart Jeff, we blokes all talk it up!!!

And... I had started out with one of those dopey UPS kits that don't fit any Torana known to man as well....got a setup for nothing and had no idea at the time of thier list of problems of not fitting.

I still have the brand new rotors and calipers on the shelf in the shed, along with a bunch of other Brembo (and PBR) calipers.

I did trim the bump stop area on my K frame though, it didn't fuss me at all to do it, and plated it back in with plenty thick material so it'll be fine.

I hear ya Mate!! I too have the dopey UPS kit only because it says it fits LX etc. There was NO mention of any alterations to be made and if anyone from UPS wish to query that statement I have the original ebay ad printed and all.
Take a deep breathe .... sorry got a little annoyed .... :banghead:

Would you have needed to trim the bump stop with your present setup say if you were starting a fresh like me ???

Edited by ToranaL67, 12 August 2012 - 10:41 PM.

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#14 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:25 AM

Yes, I reckon it still might need a bit of a trim, but suppose it depends on just what rotor/caliper combo you run. If you ran a more shallow rotor that pushed the caliper outward more, would give more room of course on the inside.

Depends on the shape of the wheel/spokes that you are going to run..

Getting a wheel to start with, if you have a certain one you want to use then design around that is one way to go for me..or just build the brake setup and try to find a wheel that clears everything after that ?

There was a few different rotors that were pretty 'flat' and would have pulled the caliper further away from the center of the car for clearance. But you'd need a wheel with a thicker mounting pad area or spokes that curved outward for room.

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#15 _LXSS350_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:34 AM

Avoid UPC like a plague of herpes, that is if you want good brakes or something that fits without a major rework. For an off the shelf bolt-up kit the Hoopers kits are a far better option (unless you go to something like AP's, Brembo's etc)

If you want those as a bolt-on kit then speak to MSF Racing or RaceBrakes (both well worth a call). Today I installed the AP's (5570 & 5147) on 330 two piece rotors. With careful measuring its all pretty straight forward to design and fit. Because I am totally useless on a lathe, having a mate who is a brilliant machinist completed the picture.

Edited by LXSS350, 13 August 2012 - 02:39 AM.

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#16 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:52 AM

two piece rotors

I had that thought too, it would have saved a bit of weight on my setup, but the cost was a little out of the way in my case. (The genuine Mercedes 1 piece rotors are under $200 each, the 2 piece where a grand ? each, ha ha..) I know there are plenty of after market brand 2 piece rotor setups out there too, but none of them could touch the Mercedes pricing versus the 1 piece rotor to make the addition cost worth while for weight savings on my 'street' car.

Sounds like your AP setup is a good go though !

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#17 _LXSS350_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:14 AM

Broke the digital scales (dropped them) so I didn't get to weigh the final assemblies. But although far bigger I estimate them to be considerably less than the standard A9X set-up they replaced. The front hubs and hats are both anodised 7075 T6 aluminium with vented 28mm front discs and vented 25mm rears (custom aluminium hat).

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#18 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:32 AM

My front rotors are 380 x 36 and tip the scales at around 28 pounds or so? from memory..

And since I had done it, here is caliper weight.. 12.8 pounds.

Posted Image

And just because it's a neat comparison picture....standard Torana front brakes compared to the new caliper, lol...

Posted Image

PS. Be neat to compare a carbon rotor on the scale compared to the aluminum hat/iron rotor version...

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#19 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

Current setup will be running 18 x 8 Monaro/Pontiac rims with the 42-45 offset which is approx 53-54 inches track width as opposed to 55.1 inches standard track as per the LH Torana service manual.
Putting 235/40/18 tyres on will give me a rolling diameter of 644mm.

Everything ads up ..... I just can't turn ... bluddy el.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, these are the wheels I will be using, which should give me a little to play with.

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#20 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:09 PM

Today I installed the AP's (5570 & 5147) on 330 two piece rotors. With careful measuring its all pretty straight forward to design and fit.

I and possibly a few others would LOVE to see some pickies if you have some???

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#21 _papayahatch_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:38 PM

Aren't the calipers suposed to be in front of the stub axle . I now this is a pain with clearance for tierod ends but thats how they were originally . And this may be how UPC intended them to be assembled.

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#22 _L32M20_

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:48 PM

i think your top control arms are UC,by the position of your top balljoint al.

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#23 _LXSS350_

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:08 AM

My front rotors are 380 x 36 and tip the scales at around 28 pounds or so? from memory..

And since I had done it, here is caliper weight.. 12.8 pounds.

And just because it's a neat comparison picture....standard Torana front brakes compared to the new caliper, lol...

PS. Be neat to compare a carbon rotor on the scale compared to the aluminium hat/iron rotor version...

Jeff ran some of the calipers/rotor weights today on a borrowed set of digital scales.
(Calipers with pads).

AP CP5570 6 spot = 2.7kg
AP CP5147 4 spot = 2.15kg
AP CP5555 6 spot = 3.2kg
330x28 rotor/hat = 8.2kg
330x25 rotor/hat = 7.8kg
362x32 rotor/hat = 12.3kg
Front Ceramic Rotor/Hat (394x36mm) = 5.9kg
Rear Ceramic Rotor/Hat (380x34mm) = 6.5kg
Front Caliper (6 spot) with pads = 7.3kg
Rear Caliper (4 spot) with pads = 5.5kg

Don't have a same sized ceramic for an apples to apple comparison. However as you can see by the above weights the ceramic rotors vs steel/alum are very light. The big downfall is that the calipers to suit are physically bigger and heavier compared to the AP's. Biggest difference is that you can hammer the ceramic as hard as you want lap after lap without fade and no brake dust. Really are just totally fade free. However at a $9k setup they certainly are not what you would call cheap.

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#24 _LS1 Hatch_

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:59 AM

Wow, the ceramic rotors really do shave off the pounds! MY buddy at the mercedes dealer has all the ceramic ones there in stock for the SLS, SLR, etc but no scale at work so wasn't really sure how they compare (other than "lighter" and "super expensive" lol..
The 362x32 rotors you mentioned are similar in weight to mine up front it sounds like..my caliper on the scale has no brake pads though for comparison to yours (and they use 4 pads in each caliper as well)

Cool to see all your specs to compare with though!

(I can scale one of my new rear calipers if anyone was curious, I have a spare one laying around still)

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#25 _ToranaL67_

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:47 PM

Thanks Jeff, Neil and All Contributors

I have been playing front brakes and believe, at this stage, that I will be able to run the big brakes and maintain clearances with no chopping / grinding of any components.
"The traditional calipers like mine have all the hydraulics / pistons on one side creating clearance issues with front end components".
"Other options like AP Racing, Wilwood, Brembo etc. have a symetrical caliper that has small pistons on both sides giving lots of clearance but equal surface pressure depending on individual needs and specs".
I know some readers will say der.... I knew that .... but there has not been any photos / tecnical info. explaining what the hardened car nuts believe is common knowledge.

Jeffs way of selecting the wheels that you like first and then working backwards has become my method and is a great idea when customising.

This link is just a little more info I have found in the quest for big brakes and will it all fit.
http://www.racepads....GT_Techinfo.pdf

I now need to souce some HX stub axles to improve front steering geometry.

Bye for now ... AL