It's extremely hard to quote a car that's already in primer or paint. Best thing is to get it stripped by any means, If the owner wants to save cash they can save Abit by stripping by hand and then you know what your in for.
over priced restorations?
Started by
_Mick_186_
, Sep 08 2012 02:29 PM
183 replies to this topic
#27
gtrboyy
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:44 AM
Shite Matty,starting to scare me for when the gtr eventually gets done one day.
Hoping that 20k max might cover bodywork it although after owning it nearly 20yrs want it done right & to last another 20 yrs.
Hoping that 20k max might cover bodywork it although after owning it nearly 20yrs want it done right & to last another 20 yrs.
#28
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:11 AM
Well guys i do think that 15k to 25k is around the mark when your talking panel and paint resto
Last year i was doing Ford BAs under warranty by ford Australia for a smash shop the boss was charging just 8K each
The outside of cars were paint striped primed and repainted couple little repairs hear or there just dents mostly not door shuts
every one was finished and put back together and rolled out of there in a week.
allso i have done a few 15k restos on early chevs Pontiacs and other American muscle cars and i can tell you the older they are the more work is involved in re alighninig panels plenishing and straitening skins and removing replacing sections rust repairs not to men-chine rust proofing
Guys i can tell you this its worth your bucks 15k to 25k easy too have a professional like myself do the work not a Hobiest or just a back yarder.
My mates VH commadore im doing in my garage its 2 tone like a SLE charged him less than 2K its a Phantom Black over Quick silver with a platinum Perl over silver and a red Flake over Black all done in 2 pack clearing will be done with 4 Coates then chopped lightly then re cleared again with 2 too 3 Coates very time consuming but its mates rates and its all good
Last year i was doing Ford BAs under warranty by ford Australia for a smash shop the boss was charging just 8K each
The outside of cars were paint striped primed and repainted couple little repairs hear or there just dents mostly not door shuts
every one was finished and put back together and rolled out of there in a week.
allso i have done a few 15k restos on early chevs Pontiacs and other American muscle cars and i can tell you the older they are the more work is involved in re alighninig panels plenishing and straitening skins and removing replacing sections rust repairs not to men-chine rust proofing
Guys i can tell you this its worth your bucks 15k to 25k easy too have a professional like myself do the work not a Hobiest or just a back yarder.
My mates VH commadore im doing in my garage its 2 tone like a SLE charged him less than 2K its a Phantom Black over Quick silver with a platinum Perl over silver and a red Flake over Black all done in 2 pack clearing will be done with 4 Coates then chopped lightly then re cleared again with 2 too 3 Coates very time consuming but its mates rates and its all good
Edited by RichoX1, 09 September 2012 - 02:17 AM.
#29
_Quagmire_
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 02:46 AM
old story not what you know but who...and do as much as you can yourself
my van will cost less than 1k for panel/paint but i am doing all the work myself and cheaping out on materials
then again i'm not expecting a show job or it to last either
but yeah unless it's a show job 40k sounds excessive
my van will cost less than 1k for panel/paint but i am doing all the work myself and cheaping out on materials
then again i'm not expecting a show job or it to last either
but yeah unless it's a show job 40k sounds excessive
#30
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 05:55 AM
al
not been a smart ass mate but your van must have a perfect body to start with, as im lucky to paint a car for under 1k.
or should i say buy the matirels for that.
cheers gong
not been a smart ass mate but your van must have a perfect body to start with, as im lucky to paint a car for under 1k.
or should i say buy the matirels for that.
cheers gong
Edited by LONA-CK, 09 September 2012 - 05:56 AM.
#31
_LH SLR 3300_
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 06:51 AM
It's easy for those who restore cars for a hobby to label a $30-40K bare metal in/out restoration of an old car as excessive, add the hours spent aligning panel gaps that were never perfect from factory, hand make intricate repair sections from flat bits of steel, then weld them in so the repair is undetectable & only needs a skim of filler rather than 10-15mm, apply the hi-fill then blockrub the whole car not once but up to four times or more to get the panels straight & so on & so on. Then equate $80-90hr for labour & see what the hypophetical bill comes to. Then add the cost of materials including all sandpapers, masking tape etc, gas or diesel to run the paint booth. Then add the cost of electricity used to run MIG welders, air compressors etc. Then add $1000-3000pw rent on the workshop. When doing this type of work at home it's easy to forget to take these extra expenses into account, but when you do it for a living then you'll go broke very quickly if you don't. My own Toranas would probably owe me around $5-6K each in materials, two are just every day slap together street cars but each still ended up with around 150-200 hours of labour, the third i've spent closer to 400 hours chasing perfection & the car is still in hi-fill.
#32
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:02 AM
Funny how the hobbyist is labeled as not doing as good a job,and loading up large amounts of bog,not the case in every backyard.People that are NOT working to the clock, to pay there banks, have far more time to do a better job than the shops,the trophys prove that,smash shops get the shits with people like me and bitch and moan.
I would not like owning a shop,finding people that have a go these days is hard,texting, smoking and general laziness, the customer should not pay for,i work close to several shops and a lot of this goes on.
Its easy for shop owners to make excessive dollars doing these restos,simply because no one does them any more,shops are full of panel fitters,painting new panels for the quick buck.
Now i have no problem with the cost soaring over 20k for rusted damaged vehicles,but as the starter states,what were his words something like a straight car with minimal rust.
I would not like owning a shop,finding people that have a go these days is hard,texting, smoking and general laziness, the customer should not pay for,i work close to several shops and a lot of this goes on.
Its easy for shop owners to make excessive dollars doing these restos,simply because no one does them any more,shops are full of panel fitters,painting new panels for the quick buck.
Now i have no problem with the cost soaring over 20k for rusted damaged vehicles,but as the starter states,what were his words something like a straight car with minimal rust.
#33
_LH8VD69_
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:12 AM
I find it really amusing people accepting the prices panel beaters try to charge for a bloody paint job. I mean ru guys on crack or something? Oh but hang on he has to pay 3k rent then he has to pay for power too. Big deal! When was the last time you went to KFC and bought a burger for $500 because they have a power bill? Or perhaps pay $250 for a coffee because the coffee shop decided to open it in a high rent area?
A consumer pays for materials and a $ per hour just like if you get a sparky to your house to fix something... Oh hang on this sparky just bought a 200 series cruiser so he has to charge you 10 times the price. .... Yeashh !! 30-40k for a relatively straight rust free car.. Hahaha !
A consumer pays for materials and a $ per hour just like if you get a sparky to your house to fix something... Oh hang on this sparky just bought a 200 series cruiser so he has to charge you 10 times the price. .... Yeashh !! 30-40k for a relatively straight rust free car.. Hahaha !
#34
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:30 AM
I find it really amusing people accepting the prices panel beaters try to charge for a bloody paint job. I mean ru guys on crack or something? Oh but hang on he has to pay 3k rent then he has to pay for power too. Big deal! When was the last time you went to KFC and bought a burger for $500 because they have a power bill? Or perhaps pay $250 for a coffee because the coffee shop decided to open it in a high rent area?
A consumer pays for materials and a $ per hour just like if you get a sparky to your house to fix something... Oh hang on this sparky just bought a 200 series cruiser so he has to charge you 10 times the price. .... Yeashh !! 30-40k for a relatively straight rust free car.. Hahaha !
^^^ Agree, all the business overheads like electricity, rent, telephone, profit margin, office staff etc etc etc are allowed for in the labour charge out rate.
#35
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 08:44 AM
i got a a guy to come and give me a quote i told him what i wanted he gave me a price and
i wasnt happy with it then he told me "well its a slr how much would it be worth when its finished"
this was after he told me the price he charges on combi vans was under half the price .so if i had a
vee dub it would be cheaper because its not worth as much
i wasnt happy with it then he told me "well its a slr how much would it be worth when its finished"
this was after he told me the price he charges on combi vans was under half the price .so if i had a
vee dub it would be cheaper because its not worth as much
#36
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:14 AM
i got a a guy to come and give me a quote i told him what i wanted he gave me a price and
i wasnt happy with it then he told me "well its a slr how much would it be worth when its finished"
this was after he told me the price he charges on combi vans was under half the price .so if i had a
vee dub it would be cheaper because its not worth as much
No doubt he won't be getting the job.
#37
unclefestal34s
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:25 AM
everybody has a good opinion on this topic and its path i've personally been down so many times and can hear arguements from both sides of the fence and relate with them ...as i've also done it from sides of the fence meaning dealing with panel shops and people working from home..
example 5 years i stripped down one of my L34s which a had a very straight body and low mileage 81ks car with very little use but was painted in the early eighties a darker red its original colour being burgurdy...
anyway i had all the bodyshell and panels sandblasted..i knew the bodyshell was rust free but it had some repairs hidden away with body filler but overall a excellent shell in my opinion having undressed a million torana's in my time..
i towed the car to panel shop who were at the time doing all of AMCS cars gt falcons etc...they quoted the car at a starting price of 30k and upwards in disbelief i went off my dial as the guy quoting was basing the work on a XY FALCON they just completed in the same condition and his #@$^%& up opinion they were all the same really i told him...
i wasn't even going to attempt to play or call his bluff ...as his comment was this its a L34 its to worth over a 100k anyway,.i went up to him as he was big noting himself in front off his bosses and told to give me 50k now and its yours...he shut his mouth up quick smart and the quote changed quite a bit but already i had made up my mind they weren't getting the job as like i told them quote whats in front of you...A LH TORANA with flares thats been prepared for some repairs and paint only as i was assembling it..
my point is here is some panel shops quote totally different to what they should..most panel shops don't want old cars hanging around not unless the owner has a personal interest and then they might take a car on and sits for long periods of time and when there not busy they blood the apprentices on them and so forth..
whats also a major problem is people who buy cars that need restoration work and remember 30 years ago when there uncle or dad had a paint job done for $500 and can't comprehend or simply don't want to pay todays prices...when people want specific parts for torana's and ask me i tell them go to the local wrecking yard when they bicker on prices they soon come back...
restoration work is about old cars generally and patience and i've learnt your never going to please anyone in this industry or arguement unless you deal with people who are passionate about working on old cars...like everything it has a price and varies greatly to with whom you choose to deal with....
over the years i've dealt with plenty of good restorer's but just want to give someone on this forum a big plug..
MATT LH SLR-3300 ...i've meant some anal people in my time and having spent over 30years plus in and out panel shops but was totally surprised to learn matt had only been in the trade for a short time..when you see this guys work and passion you would believe he's and old timer as his skill belie his years in the industry...his attention to detail is brilliant to say the least and fabricating of panels and sections will i thought i'd seen it all...keep up the good work matt and frOcks sake believe in yourself...
example 5 years i stripped down one of my L34s which a had a very straight body and low mileage 81ks car with very little use but was painted in the early eighties a darker red its original colour being burgurdy...
anyway i had all the bodyshell and panels sandblasted..i knew the bodyshell was rust free but it had some repairs hidden away with body filler but overall a excellent shell in my opinion having undressed a million torana's in my time..
i towed the car to panel shop who were at the time doing all of AMCS cars gt falcons etc...they quoted the car at a starting price of 30k and upwards in disbelief i went off my dial as the guy quoting was basing the work on a XY FALCON they just completed in the same condition and his #@$^%& up opinion they were all the same really i told him...
i wasn't even going to attempt to play or call his bluff ...as his comment was this its a L34 its to worth over a 100k anyway,.i went up to him as he was big noting himself in front off his bosses and told to give me 50k now and its yours...he shut his mouth up quick smart and the quote changed quite a bit but already i had made up my mind they weren't getting the job as like i told them quote whats in front of you...A LH TORANA with flares thats been prepared for some repairs and paint only as i was assembling it..
my point is here is some panel shops quote totally different to what they should..most panel shops don't want old cars hanging around not unless the owner has a personal interest and then they might take a car on and sits for long periods of time and when there not busy they blood the apprentices on them and so forth..
whats also a major problem is people who buy cars that need restoration work and remember 30 years ago when there uncle or dad had a paint job done for $500 and can't comprehend or simply don't want to pay todays prices...when people want specific parts for torana's and ask me i tell them go to the local wrecking yard when they bicker on prices they soon come back...
restoration work is about old cars generally and patience and i've learnt your never going to please anyone in this industry or arguement unless you deal with people who are passionate about working on old cars...like everything it has a price and varies greatly to with whom you choose to deal with....
over the years i've dealt with plenty of good restorer's but just want to give someone on this forum a big plug..
MATT LH SLR-3300 ...i've meant some anal people in my time and having spent over 30years plus in and out panel shops but was totally surprised to learn matt had only been in the trade for a short time..when you see this guys work and passion you would believe he's and old timer as his skill belie his years in the industry...his attention to detail is brilliant to say the least and fabricating of panels and sections will i thought i'd seen it all...keep up the good work matt and frOcks sake believe in yourself...
#39
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:49 AM
That comment about KFC is ludicrous. For starters they have a relatively tiny premises so rent would be a fraction of a panel shop, they employ teenagers at $15 an hour and constantly sell products every minute for a profit. Products which costs them cents to buy and start up costs are a few ovens and deep fryers etc which is all cheap through the franchise anyway.
Panel shops have rent of $1000-3000 start up costs are huge, booth alone is 30-50k then you got spray guns, compressors, metal working equiptment, welders, consumables etc etc then you have to pay skilled workers top dollar to stop them from going to the mines plus the materials for each car can be $5000+ and hundreds and hundreds of hours labour.
Yes the overheads are built into the hourly rate, it's not like you do a job add up the hours and then slap on a extra 10k to cover the rent
But yes people that quote a SLR much more expensive just because it's a SLR are assholes, it doesn't matter If it's a cortina or a camaro when it comes to panel and paint hours are hours... Only way you could justify it from car to car is if you know from experience the particular car was really bad for rust in certain areas and your just pre-empting the extra time it's going to take, or in the case of say a dodge Phoenix where the panel fitment from factory was horrid
And yes Home hobbyists can do excellent jobs, even better the workshops in cases because they don't have to pay for the labour which is the majority of the cost. But next time you do it yourself add up the hours it took you and then multiply that by $80-90 then I'm sure you will understand
We also have to factor in warranty claims... If a little rust bubble or sink back appears or other imperfection the customer would be straight back demanding it fixed for free. So you decide do I do a fast job give the customer what he wants at the price he wants and hope there is no problems and he doesn't come back 3 years later with a rust bubble and demand you fix it which costs you more money.
Or you take the time and do it spot on first time where you know their won't be later problems and charge for the extra time if took to do it right. There shouldn't be any problems but If there was then your more happy to take it on the nose.
We choose to do the latter, when my partner first started out he used to try work to the clients budget of 5-6k and to get the job done in the amount of hours you had to rush things here and there to give the customer what they want price wise.... But at the end of the job they still expected a 40k job at the 5k price and pick the crap out of it and bring back any tiny flaw to be fixed and demand it's done for free.
Even then He had no overheads (big shed on own property) so very low hourly rate and slowly built up the tools and usually did much more hours then he charged. But still they complained
So I hope you can understand why it is so expensive. If you want it done right with good products and allow them the time to do it without having to cut corners and provide a warrenty it's not going to be 5-10k
Panel shops have rent of $1000-3000 start up costs are huge, booth alone is 30-50k then you got spray guns, compressors, metal working equiptment, welders, consumables etc etc then you have to pay skilled workers top dollar to stop them from going to the mines plus the materials for each car can be $5000+ and hundreds and hundreds of hours labour.
Yes the overheads are built into the hourly rate, it's not like you do a job add up the hours and then slap on a extra 10k to cover the rent
But yes people that quote a SLR much more expensive just because it's a SLR are assholes, it doesn't matter If it's a cortina or a camaro when it comes to panel and paint hours are hours... Only way you could justify it from car to car is if you know from experience the particular car was really bad for rust in certain areas and your just pre-empting the extra time it's going to take, or in the case of say a dodge Phoenix where the panel fitment from factory was horrid
And yes Home hobbyists can do excellent jobs, even better the workshops in cases because they don't have to pay for the labour which is the majority of the cost. But next time you do it yourself add up the hours it took you and then multiply that by $80-90 then I'm sure you will understand
We also have to factor in warranty claims... If a little rust bubble or sink back appears or other imperfection the customer would be straight back demanding it fixed for free. So you decide do I do a fast job give the customer what he wants at the price he wants and hope there is no problems and he doesn't come back 3 years later with a rust bubble and demand you fix it which costs you more money.
Or you take the time and do it spot on first time where you know their won't be later problems and charge for the extra time if took to do it right. There shouldn't be any problems but If there was then your more happy to take it on the nose.
We choose to do the latter, when my partner first started out he used to try work to the clients budget of 5-6k and to get the job done in the amount of hours you had to rush things here and there to give the customer what they want price wise.... But at the end of the job they still expected a 40k job at the 5k price and pick the crap out of it and bring back any tiny flaw to be fixed and demand it's done for free.
Even then He had no overheads (big shed on own property) so very low hourly rate and slowly built up the tools and usually did much more hours then he charged. But still they complained
So I hope you can understand why it is so expensive. If you want it done right with good products and allow them the time to do it without having to cut corners and provide a warrenty it's not going to be 5-10k
#40
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:10 AM
I agree the KFC comment is ludicrous.
Its like saying your more than happy to have a pimply faced greasy 16 year old who has dropped out of school and has absolutely no life skills whatsoever, who doesnt wawnt to be there, and is getting like $8 an hour to do your panel/paint work for you, spitting in your door jams and stuff, and being pushed to slap it together as fast as his game controller toned fingers can manage.....If a car from a panel shop looked like a burger from makkas, when compared to the sample pick, i'd be rather annoyed.
Cheers.
Its like saying your more than happy to have a pimply faced greasy 16 year old who has dropped out of school and has absolutely no life skills whatsoever, who doesnt wawnt to be there, and is getting like $8 an hour to do your panel/paint work for you, spitting in your door jams and stuff, and being pushed to slap it together as fast as his game controller toned fingers can manage.....If a car from a panel shop looked like a burger from makkas, when compared to the sample pick, i'd be rather annoyed.
Cheers.
Edited by Bomber Watson, 09 September 2012 - 11:11 AM.
#41
enderwigginau
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:25 AM
This topic has been done to death in the past.
If you are going to whole hog, then you should expect $10k or $20k
If it's a really basic job.....well.......
There are still guys around who can and will do a very good job for $3-5k......
Why pay Summernats Grand Champion prices, when you only want the famly taxi rate.
Grant..
I agree with this line.....it's the cowboys trying to charge $10+ for a tidy up and recoat in basic acrylic that is an issue.give them a quote of more than $4-5K for a full in/out bare steel re-paint in 2K COB & their jaw usually hits the floor.
If you are going to whole hog, then you should expect $10k or $20k
If it's a really basic job.....well.......
There are still guys around who can and will do a very good job for $3-5k......
Why pay Summernats Grand Champion prices, when you only want the famly taxi rate.
Grant..
#42
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:44 AM
um NO he also missed out on another 2 of my cars .No doubt he won't be getting the job.
i have had decent quotes but its the time factor ,they cant start on it till april may 2013
or it will take 6 months
#43
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 11:46 AM
^^^ Yes it has been done to death in the past & the outcome is almost always the same. Panel shops are rip-offs & overcharge etc. Ironic the amount of shops i know that have closed down because they weren't profitable enough to sustain their operation including my previous place of employment. And it wasn't because i was texting or smoking on the clock, it was because in this industry we are governed by insurance companies. They dictate the methods of repair, the time we're given to do the work & the amount we're paid. And if there is a problem, the responsibility is put back onto us, even if we were following the directions of the insurance company in the first instant. Natually in any profession, there are also those who have no integrity & will rip off their customers blind, but that small minority generally ruin it for the honest operators by tarring us all with the same brush. It's hard to compete in the buisness world where the cheapest, but not neccesarily the best job always seems to win the tender.
#44
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:41 PM
last job I did for an xu1 for a customer was a quote for 20 - 25k for a show finish shell with panels. wen the car came to me on a rotissory he explained he want every hole welded under the car, brackets deleted, engine bay smoothed and the list went on and on
things that were never in the quote so I charged my hourly rate on top again. by the time the car left mine owed him just under 35k
but were talkin a real shmick jobunder the car is COB 2 PAC glasurit as is the top
ps only rust was front guards, rear bever, both rear quarters, little bit in one door, chassis rail and two front floor pans
sorry probly shud of stated this at the start of the thread
things that were never in the quote so I charged my hourly rate on top again. by the time the car left mine owed him just under 35k
but were talkin a real shmick jobunder the car is COB 2 PAC glasurit as is the top
ps only rust was front guards, rear bever, both rear quarters, little bit in one door, chassis rail and two front floor pans
sorry probly shud of stated this at the start of the thread
#45
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:51 PM
^^^That's why i stand by original post. My shop is doing work for the likes of Howard Astill & Michael Brown who have no problem with our rates & we even had Charlie Hutton come to the shop & tell us we weren't charging enough. Alot of the cars that go through my shop end up with similar price tags on the job but they are painted in/out & top to bottom. We recently did a basic r&r, block back with a few minor repairs, hi-fill block & in/out repaint in 2K solid on a fairly clean HR ute for $15K. Even though the car has the odd ripple here & there, the owner was rapped with the job, but it is no show car.
#46
_ingles_
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 09:32 PM
So my theory of spending lotsa money on mechanicals and bugger the paintwork is looking better and better....
#47
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 10:14 PM
The thing is you get what you pay for! but in saying this you shouldnt be charged like a wounded bull .
Using the apprentice on the repairs which I have had and being charged for fully qualified.
Maybe some of these panel beaters need to shift into cheaper factories for rent.
The reason for concentrating on insurance work is to keep the bills and wages paid ,I guess its left up to the restos to bring in the profits as the insurance companies screw the shops over...just a thought
Using the apprentice on the repairs which I have had and being charged for fully qualified.
Maybe some of these panel beaters need to shift into cheaper factories for rent.
The reason for concentrating on insurance work is to keep the bills and wages paid ,I guess its left up to the restos to bring in the profits as the insurance companies screw the shops over...just a thought
#48
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:35 AM
Bomber and Viper you guys have totally missed the point. I used KFC as an example only. I wasnt trying to compare the wages of a 15 year old to that of a painter or the 15 year old painting your car. Viper the premises of KFC may or may not be as big as a panel shop but the franchise cost is a sight more than 3k-5k rent a panel shop will pay. Beside the point no one should be able to pass on the costs of a premises ,power ect ect to the customer. If they want to charge $120 per hour plus materials , fine. I qestioned one panel beater after quoting me a crazy price for painting my car and he said i bet you work in the mines ? Which i replied yes. He then went on to say well you would be on big money so why shouldnt he be on big money. Thats when i let rip on the retard. Bare in mind its my opinion only , each to their own.
#49
wot179
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:21 AM
I agree with him.
Why isnt he allowed to earn big money?
His job is a skilled craft.Hes not just digging a hole,you know..
Why isnt he allowed to earn big money?
His job is a skilled craft.Hes not just digging a hole,you know..
#50
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:42 AM
if you listen to gina rentheart then no one deserves big money and we all get paid to muchI agree with him.
Why isnt he allowed to earn big money?
His job is a skilled craft.Hes not just digging a hole,you know..
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