Back when i used to actually ride a 21 speed pushy i left the crank selector in top and just switched the 7 at the wheel....Worked for me, if you need to go down to first first your either 40kg or weak as piss 
overdrive aussie m20 thoughts?
Started by
_barana_
, Mar 28 2013 08:23 PM
45 replies to this topic
#26
_Bomber Watson_
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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:17 PM
#27
rodomo
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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:26 PM
#28
Uncle Chop Chop
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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:34 PM
The Ford Traders (Mazda T4100) had a 5 speed box with a separate high/low lever. The idea was 1L - 1H - 2L etc when under load. The old International trucks had their high/low as a seperate switch on the gear shift, no clutch was required when going from low to high with that box, from memory.
#29
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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:40 PM
Pffft!
Clutch is only for moving off!
Cheers.
Gear jammer Bob
#30
Uncle Chop Chop
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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:51 PM
Clutch is also handy for push starting Fords.
#31
View GaragePosted 29 March 2013 - 09:39 PM
if you need to go down to first first your either 40kg or weak as piss
Or going up a steep hill? Guess you guys don't have those...
#32
_330OLX_
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:24 AM
Actually, Toyota put the steel case series of gear box behind the starfire.
Pretty sure Toyota used a Borg Warner box behind the Starfire in the XT130 Corona
#33
TerrA LX
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:49 AM
Pretty sure Toyota used a Borg Warner box behind the Starfire in the XT130 Corona
I have the bellhousing here to prove it if you want to come have a look.
#34
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:09 AM
The Ford Traders (Mazda T4100) had a 5 speed box with a separate high/low lever. The idea was 1L - 1H - 2L etc when under load. The old International trucks had their high/low as a seperate switch on the gear shift, no clutch was required when going from low to high with that box, from memory.
Most of those old trucks (Bedfords, Inters etc) with the high and low range switch on the shifter used a two speed diff. It worked very well but you don't see it used much anymore. Back to the original question, I'd much rather use a W series Toyota box than an M20. You can get ratios that would be close to XU1 if that's what you want, though for drag racing I think the standard ratios are much better. Plus 3 speeds and an OD means you're limited to using a very mild engine (at least in NA form). Four speeds are barely enough for a strong 202, and for anything more highly tuned you really need at least five usable speeds.
#35
_barana_
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:44 PM
wow torrypower! smart! your not just an ugly face! 
I wonder how one would go about getting 3rd (and possibly 1st and 2nd adjusted) gear ratio changed? are there 'Gearmakers' out there for hire? or has someone already done this ?
The reaso I'm playing with the idea is: One of my UC's had a 3.90 in it, made for bloody brilliant accelleration with a stock 202 and tri, but on the highway the revs and fuel consumption were quite high. with the overdriven third, especially if one took overdrive quite low maybe 0.6:1, then highway cruising in this config would be great , as well as killer accelleration.
#36
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 12:54 PM
though for drag racing I think the standard ratios are much better. Plus 3 speeds and an OD means you're limited to using a very mild engine (at least in NA form). Four speeds are barely enough for a strong 202, and for anything more highly tuned you really need at least five usable speeds.
I'm a bit of a dimwit, oldjohnno.Could you explain once again for the slow group why you would need a 4 or 5sp for a worked 6?
Me old mate i knocked around with in school had a very warm 192 in his eh panelvan and a syncro on first 3 sp, was the ducks guts, had better acceleration than later on when he slotted in an m20 (and in his VB before he could afford to get another m20 iirc)
I'm talking here of a N/A engine.
N.B. I have also flirted with the idea of the borgwarner 3sp overdrive manuals, ah'la toyo crown.
Edited by barana, 30 March 2013 - 12:55 PM.
#37
N/A-PWR
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:37 PM
Here is an XU1 Gear Set:-
http://thumbs3.ebays...x_Bwz9A/140.jpg
http://www.ebay.com....=item51a73ed536
p.s. Fanning the Clutch of a race 208ci engine at 5000rpm using 1st with a 3 speed box and a 2.78:1 LSD diff works a treat
http://thumbs3.ebays...x_Bwz9A/140.jpg
http://www.ebay.com....=item51a73ed536
p.s. Fanning the Clutch of a race 208ci engine at 5000rpm using 1st with a 3 speed box and a 2.78:1 LSD diff works a treat
Edited by TORYPOWER, 30 March 2013 - 01:45 PM.
#38
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 01:49 PM
Could you explain once again for the slow group why you would need a 4 or 5sp for a worked 6?
Suppose that you have a nice 202 that pulls strongly from say 5000 to 6500, and that you have your tyres and suspension sufficiently sorted so that you hook up consistently. If the traction is there you could probably make good use of an overall ratio (1st x diff) of around 10 or 12:1. Now, if it's a street car you most likely won't want to be cruising at 5000rpm so you'll need an overdriven top gear as well. The problem is this: if you spread these ratios across only three gears the rpms are going to drop well below 5000rpm when you shift, so it's affecting the cars acceleration. The only way to keep it on the boil and still have lowish cruise rpms is to add more gears. Personally I'm quite happy to let a warm 202 cruise at 3500 or so; if it's well tuned it'll still give good mileage at this speed.
#39
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:43 PM
29 gears pffft, chuck em all in together and sort 'em out later. My bikes got 12 gears, that's six more than I'll ever use LOL.
Suppose you also like to wear Lycra.
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Haha no, mountain bikers don't wear that rubbish
#40
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 02:56 PM
and shaving your hair off is for them other types.
#41
_barana_
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:58 PM
@oldjonno
Could u tune said 6 to breathe well from say 3000 to 5000 sort of 'tuning' it to suit this mythical 3sp+odrive ?
Could u tune said 6 to breathe well from say 3000 to 5000 sort of 'tuning' it to suit this mythical 3sp+odrive ?
#42
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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:53 PM
@oldjonno
Could u tune said 6 to breathe well from say 3000 to 5000 sort of 'tuning' it to suit this mythical 3sp+odrive ?
Sure, but it'll be at the expense of peak power so it's not gonna be very quick. The rpm range you mentioned would be very close to that of a stock VK efi motor.
Someone mentioned a 700; this would work very well I think. A loose-ish converter plus the 3 lower ratios should accelerate OK and the OD top with the converter locked would give a low cruise rpm. But of course it's neither a manual or an M20...
#43
_barana_
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Posted 31 March 2013 - 07:35 PM
is there some sort of m$ excel / web based /other diff ratio x gb ratio x engine revs calculator out there so I can fiddle with the numbers and experiment on paper/with pixels before i start to build a machine ?
#44
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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:08 PM
is there some sort of m$ excel / web based /other diff ratio x gb ratio x engine revs calculator out there so I can fiddle with the numbers and experiment on paper/with pixels before i start to build a machine ?
QuarterJunior http://quarterjr.com/ would be your best bet, but I can't find it online anymore. It'll show the effect on performance of different ratios. Quarter Pro would be a bit of an overkill but it's still pretty good value at $79 so you might consider it. PM me if you can't find QuarterJnr, I might be able to help you out.
#45
Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:30 PM
This is only rough but gives you an idea of how you might set up a spreadsheet (I did it when I was looking at different boxes and diff ratios) - don't forget to put your tyre size in at the top.
If you want to add performance stuff just add some formulae for quarter mile ET/mph etc (you'll need to add the vehicle weight as an input)
Attached Files
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gear calcs.xls 23K
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#46
_barana_
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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:51 PM
thx 76lxhatch! it will provide enless hrs of fiddling. I've updated it with some other diff and gb models. maybe i could upload my fuller version to the site or sumpin.. its worth sharing ur good work.
@oldjonno
Heh I also tinker with old computers inc apple ]['s and C64's. this is the first systems quaterJR was available for... sure like to find an old version of it....
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