92 replies to this topic

[S pack]

The parts numbers seem to be unique Terry to A9X. The same 308 camshaft appears all the way through to VK (2825882), this is a late 1974 HJ cam part  number. Apart from PO A9L VK engines all 308's from HJ-VK seem to use this cam part number except A9X. Oddly enough the camshaft listed for A9X (9933211) has its part number nested right smack bang in the middle of L34 supplement era part numbers, so it may well have been a cam developed for L34 or HJ but the design only ever used on A9X.

 

As far as the crankshaft goes, all rope seal 308 cranks appear to be the same part number from HJ-VK (9932843) except for A9X. The part number of 92005960 is about right for a new item for HZ era, which is about right for A9X.

Pt No. 92005960 is an L34 crankshaft, apparently it was available as a spare parts performance upgrade for A9X

Edited by S pack, 22 May 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[yel327]

I wonder why there is no different crank listed for the L34 in the supplement or the late LH cattledog?

[S pack]

I wonder why there is no different crank listed for the L34 in the supplement or the late LH cattledog?

What is the Pt No. listed for the L34, is it the same as a std L31 crank?

[yel327]

There is none in the supplement which means it was the same as normal SLR 308. Later catalogue lists the original HT crank for neo seal, and the same 308 crank as HJ-VK for "rope seal except L34". I think this just means L34 were neo seal 308 crank. Which if that is true (which it should be as L34 are pre HJ) then the A9X cannot use an L34 crank. If that crank listed as A9X is a later part number for an L34 crank then it has to be a spare part for use in old L34 blocks for groupC A9X?

Edited by yel327, 22 May 2013 - 07:49 PM.

[REDA9X]

L34 crank is the same part number as the standard 308, 7439898 which is the neoprene version. The blocks used in the A9X were supplied when teams bought new A9X rolling shells. If a team used the old L34 block they were stuck with the old crank.

The A9X crank part number 92005960 had different materials to improve reliability.

The primary reason for the part number change in the A9X camshaft was an attempt to overcome the problems introduced with ADR27A. The timing was also adjusted to suit. I've never looked into it but I was once told the journals were made larger too.

There were running changes throughout the race life of the A9X also which included changes to the L34 pistons and availibility of other diff ratios.

The 3.9 diff homologation was actually approved at a race meeting. HDT were in charge of providing parts for homologation, however they didn't tell any other teams they had submitted the 3.9 diff for approval. The other teams jumped up and down and HDT was forced to supply the ratio to any other team that wanted to use it at that meeting ( I think it was Lakeside I'd have to check). The thing was HDT were going to every track around Australia testing tyres prior to every meeting in 79, and the 3.9 suited their rolling diameter of the rear tyres perfectly, but didn't suit other teams.

[TerrA LX]

The A9X crank part number 92005960 had different materials to improve reliability.

 

Was it nodular iron, or hi tensile?

[REDA9X]

The only info I have is "Improved reliability parts" and weight 23.9kg.

[S pack]

GM Parts & Accessories News 7th November 1979.

 

L34 High Performance parts serviced for LX Torana Performance Equipment Package Option A9X.

 

GMP&A have released the following L34 high performance parts for fitment to LX Torana vehicles equipped with the A9X option package.

 

92005960  Crankshaft

92011190   Pistons & Rings with Pins

etc etc etc

 

The high performance parts will enable owners of LX Torana models equipped with the A9X option, to increase performance of their vehicle for trial, rallying and other competitive sports. So let prospective customers know that the above L34 option parts can be supplied.

 

Just on a side note. Another GMP&A News from 1980 lists the L34 replacement block (lip seal type, presume that's a neoprene type seal) fitted with pistons as currently available.

[REDA9X]

GM Parts & Accessories News 7th November 1979.

 

L34 High Performance parts serviced for LX Torana Performance Equipment Package Option A9X.

 

GMP&A have released the following L34 high performance parts for fitment to LX Torana vehicles equipped with the A9X option package.

 

92005960  Crankshaft

92011190   Pistons & Rings with Pins

etc etc etc

 

The high performance parts will enable owners of LX Torana models equipped with the A9X option, to increase performance of their vehicle for trial, rallying and other competitive sports. So let prospective customers know that the above L34 option parts can be supplied.

 

Just on a side note. Another GMP&A News from 1980 lists the L34 replacement block (lip seal type, presume that's a neoprene type seal) fitted with pistons as currently available.

Replacement block for A9X race application 2806365

[dattoman]

For this particular A9X, just wait until a trimatic pattern GMP&A NT prefix block comes up. Any one will do, cast from 1971 through to 1981. It is as correct as you'll ever get it, much more correct than an overpriced HT prefix block.

 

You don't say....

[TerrA LX]

NT blocks (or short replacements) same as a NR block etc were available for any model,

HT is model specific.

2C.

[S pack]

Replacement block for A9X race application 2806365

That's the one Red, however it is only listed as a '308 L34 Block'.

Error correction, in my previous post I stated 'block fitted with pistons', should have just been 'Block'.

[yel327]

GM Parts & Accessories News 7th November 1979.

 

L34 High Performance parts serviced for LX Torana Performance Equipment Package Option A9X.

 

GMP&A have released the following L34 high performance parts for fitment to LX Torana vehicles equipped with the A9X option package.

 

92005960  Crankshaft

92011190   Pistons & Rings with Pins

etc etc etc

 

The high performance parts will enable owners of LX Torana models equipped with the A9X option, to increase performance of their vehicle for trial, rallying and other competitive sports. So let prospective customers know that the above L34 option parts can be supplied.

 

Just on a side note. Another GMP&A News from 1980 lists the L34 replacement block (lip seal type, presume that's a neoprene type seal) fitted with pistons as currently available.

 

So that tells me the A9X engine was the same as a normal HZ engine, and these parts were made available for race teams, if i'm reading it right.

[yel327]

NT blocks (or short replacements) same as a NR block etc were available for any model,

HT is model specific.

2C.

 

Sort of right. Many, possibly most NT stamped blocks will be TH pattern, only those drilled for manual application would properly suit a Torana. The fact that the NT prefix is generic to many models across many series is because it is a spare part, just like a gearbox housing, or banjo diff case etc. It would be silly to expect GMP&A to make a separate spare part short motor or engine for each different model in each series when they are all identical parts. Replacement spare parts are normally allowed in judging premium classes (concours etc).

Plus the HT prefix block isn't model specific either. It suits whatever models could be optioned with a 308, so:

 

LH SL

LH SL/R

LX SL

LX SL/R

LX SS

 

plus maybe even the S models. On top of that there are two different types of HT short motor, the earlier low performance neo seal 308 (HQ style) and the later rope high compression HJ-HZ style. This applies to NT engines as well though, which suits anything form a HQ through to a VB other than auto V manual thing with bellhouisng pattern

Edited by yel327, 23 May 2013 - 07:39 AM.

[TerrA LX]

Sort of right.

Plus the HT prefix block isn't model specific either. It suits whatever models could be optioned with a 308...

 

 

 

Just to clarify, I meant model specific, as in it was optioned for the Torana range, LH and LX only.

It was not available in any other series of Holden, Kingswood, Commodore etc etc.

 

I think what the Concourse are crossing the line with is IF you had an A9x from new AND the motor HAD to be replaced under warranty AND it was replaced with a NT block then it would concurrent with being an Original car.

In any event, the above would be the only time I would want a NT motor in an A9x.

[yel327]

Why would it being replaced under warranty be any different to it failing badly after say 2-3 years and the owner bought a new short engine? Only difference is who paid for it! I'm the exact opposite, if I had an A9X with the wrong HT engine in it, i'd be turfing that for an NT block.

[TerrA LX]

Why would it being replaced under warranty be any different to it failing badly after say 2-3 years and the owner bought a new short engine?

 

 

Difference being that an owner could have fitted ANY replacement motor, GMH would have fitted a spare part available to them.

 

Anyhow, it's my opinion and I own it, not trying to discredit yours or that of concourse.

 

FWIW I think this (my opinion as being more correct) is why the price of HT pre fixed engines is so high in regards to others.

Oh and if you turf a HT block, be sure to turf it my way please

[yel327]

Was it a block and piston kit or a short motor? With a number on it like NT4000?

Edited by yel327, 23 May 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[yel327]

Difference being that an owner could have fitted ANY replacement motor, GMH would have fitted a spare part available to them.

 

Anyhow, it's my opinion and I own it, not trying to discredit yours or that of concourse.

 

FWIW I think this (my opinion as being more correct) is why the price of HT pre fixed engines is so high in regards to others.

Oh and if you turf a HT block, be sure to turf it my way please

 

They could have fitted any motor, but they didn't, they fitted an NT replacement. Could have been done any time up until the last Nasco order came through. Given that blue style blocks started being used in HZ and VT circa 1978, there is no reason you couldn't have ordered an NT prefix red 308 replacement short motor right up until the end of 308 build, they'd just stamp NT and the next number in the Nasco sequence. In theory it could have happened to a 13 year old HQ by that stage. 

People pay too much for HT prefixed engines for silly reasons in my opinion, when NT blocks are even rarer but much cheaper. The reason HT are dearer is because there were so few made compared to QT. QT's were made from early 1971 through to 1980, and in much greater volumes. HT we are only talking a maximum of thousands over less than 4 years. QT there'd have been tens of thousands, maybe as high as 75-100,000. Add to that the availability of VT prefixes too for those that just want a 308 block.

[TerrA LX]

People pay too much for HT prefixed engines for silly reasons in my opinion, when NT blocks are even rarer but much cheaper. The reason HT are dearer is because there were so few made compared to QT. QT's were made from early 1971 through to 1980, and in much greater volumes. HT we are only talking a maximum of thousands over less than 4 years. QT there'd have been tens of thousands, maybe as high as 75-100,000. Add to that the availability of VT prefixes too for those that just want a 308 block.

 

 

Do you have prefix volume reports?

Are you including 11QT blocks as the same in volume as QT?

Forget about comparing NEO seal blocks as the Date code is different, also the block is cast different (these will cut down the number of QT's to counrt).

Also after 1979 QT was replaced with ZT, along side VT in both Holden and Commodore ranges.

[yel327]

My point is paying big bucks for a HT prefix block from say an earlier 1974 LH into say a 1977 LX just because it has HT on it is folly, just like putting a 1971 QT block into a 1977 HZ simply because it has QT on it. The smarter and more correct choice is a manufacturer's replacement block ie NT in this case.

 

HQ engine number sequence ran from early 1971 through to around 10/78 when 999999 was reached, so prefix changed to Z and sequence restarted at 1001. So there was just under 1000000 HQ sequence engine numbers, remove at a guess 85,000 numbers for LC-LJ, HG, Bedford and auto 6cyl LX-UC that exist in the same sequence. Leaves maybe just over 900,000 numbers. My guess is up to maybe 10% of those are 308, so the estimate of somewhere in the vicinity of 75,000. Maybe more, maybe less. Yes many have 11 in front of the Q. But 11QT or QT that is not the original to the car makes no difference to say a 308 Premier. 11QT is just as correct as QT or HT unless it is the original.

 

Z's are their own sequence, there was about 100,000 of these across HZ, Bedford and UC Torana. Maybe another 5,000-8000 of these.

 

VT and WT are in another sequence again, shloads of both of these, but just about all WT are 11WT or 12WT. By the end of 1984 this sequence was up to 500,000 so lots of VT and WT engines in amongst them.

 

All of those are huge numbers though compared to HT prefix 308's produced. All it takes is a small volume of people wanting them and they get expensive as not many were made. What is the total estimated production of LH-LX 5.0L cars with HT prefix engines? 4,000? This is probably the main reason why they are expensive.

[yel327]

Block and Pistons or a short motor? They are different. Block and pistons is just that. Short motor is crank, rods, pistons, pins, rings, cam, timing gears, timing cover etc. You couldn't just buy a bare block for most GMH products.