My SS is getting harder to start when hot, say you have driven it for 30 mins, then turn off and restart , it cranks really slow (like battery is low in amps). It has a quaddie and decent size cam, Ive fully charged the battery recently, so I dont think its that, could the timing be out ? it usually starts eventually, but Id like to solve the problem, any ideas ??
253 HARD TO START (HOT)???
Started by
to fly
, Jul 10 2006 05:34 PM
16 replies to this topic
#2
Toranamat69
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 05:52 PM
How old is the battery? This is often when they start to show their age on a hot restart situation.
How hot does your starter get? Is it close to your exhaust?
The starter could be getting heat soak/and or dying.
M@
How hot does your starter get? Is it close to your exhaust?
The starter could be getting heat soak/and or dying.
M@
#3
_big chris_
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 05:56 PM
Hey,
First a question.
Are you running extractors on your engine?
As we had a similar problem with the 253 in the my brothers SS,
is running a mild cam, and 4 barrel Rochester and a set of pacemakers,
the starter was getting hot from the extractors,
short runs around the city where the worst for it.
and eventually the solenoid failed.
By the time the solenoid stopped working all together,
the windings in the starter motor (armature) had been damaged as well.
Installed a new one, the problem went away.
Hope that sheds some light on the problem,
Cheers
Chris
First a question.
Are you running extractors on your engine?
As we had a similar problem with the 253 in the my brothers SS,
is running a mild cam, and 4 barrel Rochester and a set of pacemakers,
the starter was getting hot from the extractors,
short runs around the city where the worst for it.
and eventually the solenoid failed.
By the time the solenoid stopped working all together,
the windings in the starter motor (armature) had been damaged as well.
Installed a new one, the problem went away.
Hope that sheds some light on the problem,
Cheers
Chris
Edited by big chris, 10 July 2006 - 05:57 PM.
#4
to fly
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 06:00 PM
The battery is a few years old , Matt ,I have std manifolds so I think the starter should be ok, it cranks normally when cold and starts ok, its just when at temperature it struggles, but if I leave it to go cold ,it will start ,no problems
#5
TerrA LX
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 06:03 PM
i had a similar problem once, turned out to be a bad earth.
try checking tie battery and the starter to block to earth.
try checking tie battery and the starter to block to earth.
#6
Toranamat69
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 06:04 PM
Sounds like the starter to me.
I have experienced exacltly what Big Cris mentioned above, if the starter is always getting hot, it will gradually break down until it won't start - a new starter fixes it but I have killed new starters in 12 months by them constantly getting too hot from extractors so it is a good idea if you can adress the heating issue.
M@
Check you connections first though - they are free
I have experienced exacltly what Big Cris mentioned above, if the starter is always getting hot, it will gradually break down until it won't start - a new starter fixes it but I have killed new starters in 12 months by them constantly getting too hot from extractors so it is a good idea if you can adress the heating issue.
M@
Check you connections first though - they are free
Edited by Toranamat69, 10 July 2006 - 06:06 PM.
#7
_JNR_ATE_
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 06:38 PM
What sort of CCA is the battery, maybe a bad connection to the starter or earth and its made worse by the battery being hot and starter with a bit of heat in it.
Is you alternator charging at 14 volts?
I got another starter you can have for $80, just recoed. lol
the gear reduction starter is the way to go.
Cheers
JNR_ATE
Is you alternator charging at 14 volts?
I got another starter you can have for $80, just recoed. lol
the gear reduction starter is the way to go.
Cheers
JNR_ATE
Edited by JNR_ATE, 10 July 2006 - 06:39 PM.
#8
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 10 July 2006 - 07:04 PM
As mentioned ^, a battery that is on the way out will give these symptoms as well. It is fairly straightforward to rule out as the cause though.....if you are sure the battery has been fully charged .....ie its been on a charger and/or the alternator is putting 14V across it:
Measure the voltage across the battery when you crank the starter. A battery in good condition should crank for at least 30 secs b4 dropping below 10V, if its as sick as it sounds.....im guessing youd only be getting 9V after 3 or 4 secs. Some type of minor short could do this in the starter, but since your prob is at present when hot it does sound more like the battery.
If the battery voltage doesnt drop by at least 1V, then there is a prob with the starter or high resistance in the connections
Measure the voltage across the battery when you crank the starter. A battery in good condition should crank for at least 30 secs b4 dropping below 10V, if its as sick as it sounds.....im guessing youd only be getting 9V after 3 or 4 secs. Some type of minor short could do this in the starter, but since your prob is at present when hot it does sound more like the battery.
If the battery voltage doesnt drop by at least 1V, then there is a prob with the starter or high resistance in the connections
#9
_uglybob_
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Posted 11 July 2006 - 07:36 PM
hey i had a similar problem on my lc where it wouldnt turn over when hot. i was told that as the wiring becomes hotter it builds resistance in itself so i just replaced the lead from battery to starter with a thicker one and rerouted it a bit further away from the extractor. fixed the problem...
hope thats of some help.
hope thats of some help.
#10
_Lostit_
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Posted 12 July 2006 - 08:49 AM
Check the battery is getting 14V, if yes then get the starter checked.
Personally put a VS starter on it.. build in gear reduction in it and is very compact .
Personally put a VS starter on it.. build in gear reduction in it and is very compact .
#11
to fly
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:29 PM
Thanks for the tips, so I will swap batteries with my ute, try that, then I will run a new lead to the starter, then if still slow cranking I will get a reco starter, I will post up the culprit when I find the cause.
#12
_lxhatch_jim_
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 04:55 PM
When you say that the alternator should be charging at 14v, what rpm should this voltage charge be achieved at?
#13
_Yella SLuR_
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Posted 14 July 2006 - 05:08 PM
Over advanced timing can also display these symptoms. Try retard it a bit, dizzy clockwise. My mechanic does timing by advancing till it pings, retards a bit, goes for a drive, then retards again till it starts hot.
#14
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 07:11 AM
the voltage you get at idle does depend on alternator load and idle speed. A typical bosch alternator that is rated at 40/18(fitted to a holden), will put out 40amps at ~3000rpm and 18amps at ~700rpm. There are some models that have high outputs for idle. If one goes beyond the rating of the alternator at idle, the voltage will drop, or even creating a significant load of 15A(near its max output) at idle will lower the voltage, but would be unlikely to go much lower than 13.5V. Certainly at 700rpm with no accessories, lights and a fully charged battery, the alternator should be capable of putting out its rated voltage of 14V. The exact voltage put out depends on the individual regulator fitted to the alternator, it may be 13.5V at idle and increase to a max of 14.1V at 1500rpm, that�s fine.When you say that the alternator should be charging at 14v, what rpm should this voltage charge be achieved at?
Re too much ignition advance slowing down starter? Yes this is a possibility, however, unless you have changed the timing recently it would seem unlikely. Certainly the motor will crank faster if you reduce the advance down to ~3btdc, though you are then just compromising optimum timing to compensate for a weakness in the starting chain . You can see the max gain that you will get from changing the timing by eliminating spark while cranking��remove the coil wire.Over advanced timing can also display these symptoms
Re heat in starter cable: increasing the temp in copper wire will increase its resistance by about 3% for every 10C near typical ambient temps. If the wire starts to glow then these numbers change dramatically! You may have part of the wire near the exhaust which gets to 100C+, but this is unlikely to heat the whole wire to that value. When the motor is the unstartable condition, poor some water over bits of the cable near the motor, if the water fizzes off the cable�..its very hot. Continue to poor water over the cable till its cool and if this improves things then thats your prob. The diameters of the wires are chosen with this in mind, realising that on a warm day, the underbonnet temp can be 60-70C. Any real change due to replacing a standard cable would most likely be due to improving the connections when a new cable was fitted.was told that as the wiring becomes hotter it builds resistance in itself so i just replaced the lead from battery to starter with a thicker one and rerouted it a bit further away from the extractor. fixed the problem
Edited by devilsadvocate, 15 July 2006 - 07:13 AM.
#15
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:02 AM
It doesnt sound like you have a multimeter, they are very cheap, youll save the cost alone on just measuring the voltage of batteries in all your "toys", rather than the replacing all of them with good ones when it is just one that has died.Thanks for the tips, so I will swap batteries with my ute, try that, then I will run a new lead to the starter, then if still slow cranking I will get a reco starter, I will post up the culprit when I find the cause.
Swapping batteries around and changing leads is all unnecessary if you do some basic voltage measurements, ask if you are unsure about where to measure and what the readings mean.
#16
_Lostit_
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Posted 15 July 2006 - 08:31 AM
nice info there Devil )
In lame man terms get your hands on a multimeter or just go to a auto electrian and get him to check it..... if you can get your hands on one.. assuming you know how to use one..... place it on the terminals of the battery while motor is running , with a little revs etc 1500+ you should see 14V approx on it .. if you do then alternator is not the problem.
Okkies just so people understand ... the battery in the car is only really used for starting a car up ... the alternator takes care of running all the other electrics in the car once its running.. so really you could run a car around without a battery once its going .
Well efi is a different story since its computer needs power on start up .. but its the same basic theory .
Lostit
In lame man terms get your hands on a multimeter or just go to a auto electrian and get him to check it..... if you can get your hands on one.. assuming you know how to use one..... place it on the terminals of the battery while motor is running , with a little revs etc 1500+ you should see 14V approx on it .. if you do then alternator is not the problem.
Okkies just so people understand ... the battery in the car is only really used for starting a car up ... the alternator takes care of running all the other electrics in the car once its running.. so really you could run a car around without a battery once its going .
Well efi is a different story since its computer needs power on start up .. but its the same basic theory .
Lostit
#17
to fly
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Posted 23 July 2006 - 08:51 AM
Thanks for all the tips peep's, in the end twas the battery. one day was crankin fine, next cranking slow after a drive(when engine hot) let it cool and fine again, wish it had just sheit itself from the start.
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