216 replies to this topic

[Rockoz]

Doesnt matter what is done there will always be the looney fringe who will whinge about anything.

Years ago I had someone whinge that the siren on the fire truck I drove was too loud and kept waking them up.

Mate of mine had a dairy farm. One of the neighbours complained there were too many flies.

The farmer himself used to whinge that it was too dry.

Then after it rained he whinged it was too wet.

Some people just cant help themselves

[wot179]

Thats a poor comparison, DJ.

The issue was more transparency of process than the problem of leaks.

Edited by wot179, 24 March 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Rockoz]

The objectionists to a project will always attempt to portray the project in the worst possible way.

They will use loosely related information from whatever source they can find, whether relative to the project or not.

Rarely will they show the finished result of the project.

 

When I was working in the Hunter Valley a couple came into the pub I was staying at and went on about the destruction of the area from open cut mining.

They complained about the way the area looked on the operating mines.

Truth is that you cant mine open cut without a big hole.

Asked them if they had time to look at the areas previously mined and rehabilitated.

They said they couldnt find any.

I told them thats because the mining company did a great job.

Pointed one area out to them. They couldnt see the difference.

Until I pointed out the slightly manufactured look that a machine produces.

 

Im having a discussion currently with another Greens candidate about CSG and Coal Mining in an area generally.

He is currently making arguments under the Greens banner with mostly false information.

This is typical of those opposing any type of project. They dont care about the truth. Try to show them where they are wrong and they go into denial.

[EunUCh]

So can anyone tell us what actually goes on in CSG extraction? , is CSG almost pure methane ? one report said the chemicals used

were basically backing soda and vinegar that were used in the fracking process along in a mix of water with sand,20-80% of the fracking material was recovered ? , the water displaced was claimed to have high levels of heavy metals,even if the claim of the displaced 

water containing such things is false, what does the water displaced contain?,it must have something in it being so close to source? and how does it get processed and where does it end up ?

 

Dirty old coal can burnt very efficiently these days , makes no difference what we use for an energy/heat source there will always be "trade offs" somewhere along the line.Coal..big holes or shallow pits that can go into rehab. ... Nukes...look at Japans Russias/the worlds dilemma with that one,that "man made" shit does not go away for a long time.

 

If CSG a cheap "clean" long term source of energy with a minimal impact on people other than cheaper electricity then why not , but 

on the other hand it is a cheap profit gain and we are not being told everything...what then?

 

Some of the "greens" are not that green , a good deal of them live in very nice timber houses and have wood stoves and claim "save the forests etc."

 

If anyone would like to see what an open cut gold/copper etc. mine looks like after the fact....google "red dome gold mine".

Edited by EunUCh, 24 March 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[EunUCh]

I think therein lies the problem ? the concentration of "by products" from what processes we do to  whatever to get whatever.

Example...the dumping of sump oil is prohibited , but if you take a few liters of oil and spread it out somehow over a big  lawn and water it in the grass will be happy.

 

If we then start dumping 100's of liters over the same area all the time then it becomes too concentrated and nature does not have time to deal with it..oil is a natural product, so if the epa busts you for dumping oil just say "it came from the earth,i am heavy into recycling so i am returning it".

 

Surely the experts know what is in ash and could be used for something other than being too tight to do something with it ?...."pot ash" or "fire ash" was usually spread out over garden patches 10 trillion years ago to help the veges grow along with a bit of chook/cow shit ?

 

As far as CSG goes...we need some more info.

[Rockoz]

Up to you whether you consider you are part of the looney brigade. I didnt say you were.

The ash from the power stations does get some use.

It is used in cement and concrete blocks.

 

So far Ian the only things that I have seen regarding CSG are that the chemicals used are bio degradeable.

Somehow you managed to get toxic chemicals from that.

 

The process of CSG extraction starts with drilling a hole and lining it.

It extends down into the coal seam.

Some holes will produce gas freely. Depends on the structure of the coal.

 

And as for us making any sense we could probably say the same about you.

 

Perhaps more regulation of the industry is needed.

More checks and balances.

 

But it is a resource that is cleaner than others.

We all want a better environment.

But apart from nuclear power there is no current viable 24/7 energy source to replace fossil fuels.

 

Other holes require fracturing or fracking.

This will aid the release of the gas.

 

What some of the greenies wont tell you, and certainly dont want you to know, is that methane is actually released naturally from the seams in some areas. That is dependent on the local geology.

Whether or not it is detectable depends on what else is mixed with the gas before it reaches the surface.

 

A good old friend of mine found several spots on a local waterway where methane was being produced more than 10 years before mining was done in the area.

 

Their are claims from people living close to CSG wells that their health has been affected.

Now given that there a people who work in closer proximity to the wells, and people who work daily in atmospheres with methane present, wouldnt these health problems be prevalent amongst the workers? Or are these health problems not related?

[yel327]

Some of the "greens" are not that green , a good deal of them live in very nice timber houses and have wood stoves and claim "save the forests etc."

 

Don't forget, wood stoves and wood houses use probably the most renewable resource available. Trees will grow back multiple times in your and my lifetime. Sustainably harvested wood is a very green source of building materials, and if burnt in a modern wood heater is a very efficient heat source. I use one as I refuse to use aircon heat (as it sucks big time) and I don't have natural gas available. 

[EunUCh]

 yeah yel327   trimming the garden to keep warm is nearly a full time job around here ,it just seems to keep on growing,was involved in the green industry of timber cutting many years ago,we were very picky on what we would take and could go back to the same area a bit later and get the same amount again and leave some then move on to other areas...the bush needs trimming to be "sustainable" ...it only becomes a problem when "timber cutters' don't understand the meaning of "don't shit in your own nest" and cut the whole frokin lot down for quick profit..The hype from from Richardson and Co. frokt the green industry up this way...now the bush is a weed ridden mess.But the termites are happy,most of the "good stuff" went to the new "parliament house"..or so the story goes.  

I think there are no magic answers to the wanton  power issue other than the "KISS" principle..."man is wanton" and never content?...

[yel327]

I consider myself a "green" thinker, but the problem is greenies often appear to not think. The garbage that went on when they pulled down the wind turbine on Kooragang Island. The damn thing only ever averaged about 250kW or generation and cost huge amounts to install and maintain. It was put there as a publicity stunt. Greenies loved it! I got to climb up onto it one day and sit on the top when it was running, pretty cool thing to do.

I have solar generation on my house, and as soon as the heat pump carks it will have evacuated tube hot water - but none of it is economical without incentives. Power storage is the next thing I am going to look at - charge batteries from solar during the day and charge them at night with off-peak, and run the house off batteries during peak periods. Not cheap to do though, but a far better use of the solar power once the 60c/kW runs out.

[EunUCh]

probably more to the point, we are all stuck on this blue dot together,but, there are certain experts dictating on which way we should handle things,sure there are ways that are extremely detrimental to surroundings and people..unfortunately it looks like we are being told this that and the other when simplicity and common sense should prevail, no easy answers other than keep it as simple as possible which also means the most economic,we could get the windfan supporters to set one up in a valley somewhere and let them talk about it into the fan .....power forever from hot air ?

Methane does not have the BTU's that coal provides,but has it's place in the environment where it can be harnessed to the best possible advantage with minimal impact...trade offs i suppose?  

[Rockoz]

Ian.

It came off one of the videos you posted.

You provided the information yet now deny it.

You cant have it both ways.

Unless you have proof that 800 chemicals are used.

[EunUCh]

An energy source is an energy source,eskimos use what to cook/warm things up a bit,is there a by product ?

They use what is available and economic to the conditions provided?

 

live close to a coal reserve,what are we to do,import seal fat from the eskimo? or build a power house close by and utilize what is close by?

live close to LNG or a similar fuel, do we import the coal from 1000's of miles away along with seal fat for a backup or do we utilize what is close by in the most reasonable way we know?

 

it will come down to what is the easiest to do and these days the least amount of work required for max. profit will be the biggest part of the equation,regardless of the environmental "risks" if any ?...people are people, and when it comes to profit  that fills the pockets that is all that really matters.

not saying CSG is evil,methane is a natural product , sometimes with short term projects the lasting legacy of things like this can have

long term affects,maybe they have got it right,maybe it is a sales pitch for "future power" and it will be all good , don't know.

 

[lakeside]

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=lmbbtWFu0EU

[Rockoz]

Ian.

Once again.

The quote is from what you have posted.

Do I need to repeat myself again?

 

Any investigation on any subject can only take into account the evidence produced.

I have taken information from what you have posted.

It is local information.

Not something from America.

It is therefore relevant.

[Rockoz]

DJ

In Ians video he put up they were checking for methane leaks.

They had to have the detector right up against the pipe to get a reading.

A metre away from the pipe there was no indication.

They were using pretty crap detection devices though.

 

Take town gas or lpg.

They have an odour added to them.

You can smell the odour well before the gas gets to a dangerous level.

I doubt you would have smelled anything a metre away given the indications.

 

So very minor leaks.

 

Some of the complaints from people near CSG areas has been the smell of the gas.

Strange that considering methane is odourless.

 

A co worker and myself started to enter an old section of a mine.

We almost entered an area of high concentration methane.

There was no smell or other indication of the presence of methane.

Only the change in pitch of our voices alerted us. Similar to helium.

[wot179]

Good vid, Lakeside