210 replies to this topic

[IMORAL]

What Vin Tag?
Al posted an old newspaper ad for his GTR from years ago and it stated in the ad that one of the ID tags was missing.
There is a pic in Torana Tough showing the PSN scratched into the reverse side of the Compliance Plate and that youtube video of Al's car showed the Body ID plate albeit out of focus and unreadable.

Ben has confirmed to me that by the numbers he has on record that AL's GTR is one of three 000m dealer coded Elizabeth build cars completed on the 13/04/1972 that were at Exp Engineering at the time of the XW7 programme but that is about all the numbers prove.

Cool
I never read the entire thread that was removed

[Uncle Chop Chop]

This is Neil Pogson's email address at the Holden Retirees Club if you want to ask him Vick.

[email protected]

 

Nice to see somebody is actually posting something that allows others to verify.

 

But I stand by what I said: With that detail missing, it could've been anyone.

[xu2308]

What Vin Tag?

Al posted an old newspaper ad for his GTR from years ago and it stated in the ad that one of the ID tags was missing.

There is a pic in Torana Tough showing the PSN scratched into the reverse side of the Compliance Plate and that youtube video of Al's car showed the Body ID plate albeit out of focus and unreadable.

 

Ben has confirmed to me that by the numbers he has on record that AL's GTR is one of three 000m dealer coded Elizabeth build cars completed on the 13/04/1972 that were at Exp Engineering at the time of the XW7 programme but that is about all the numbers prove.

 

 

HHS Records know which 3-LJ GTR's they are, as Engineering had a record of the 3-GTR that got the 308's in them, my GTR is one of them, Seems you are skirting around what Ben would of told you, as Ben knows which 3-LJ GTR's they are. 

HHS has issued my GTR a HHS Certificate from there records, the PSN number is known as my GTR is a Adelaide Built Car and the last 4 numbers to the PSN are scribed on the back of the ADR Tag , i have rego papers to say GMH owned the car.

The Car has its ADR Tag and Paint & Trim Tag and Chassis number on the passenger side inner guard that matches the ADR tag.

The numbers prove its One of the Three LJ GTR's that Engineering put the 308's in, as HHS has that information, simple as that.

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Al, about how many times have you posted that?

[xu2308]

The HHS Certificate for my GTR

From HHS Records and from the Numbers of my GTR, (By the Numbers) [attachment=69529:HHS info.jpg

Edited by xu2308, 16 January 2017 - 01:24 AM.

[xu2308]

The evidence is there in your XW7 engineering drawings, open your fuking eyes!!!  Ben and I found it.

Neil also tells us that EXC can only mean one thing! Therefore it cannot mean EXCEPT M40 for one part and then EXCHANGE (or whatever other crap excuse you can come up with) for another part on the same drawing.

 

The engineer has written 2829791 exc XW7. His intended meaning is clear as day EXCEPT, EXCLUDING, NOT USED WITH XW7.

 

You can play join the dots the correct way and get a Christmas star or you can play it your way and get two dogs fuking.

 

 

 

It Could mean EXChange as well

[xu2308]

Al, It doesn't matter how rushed, pressured, drunk or stupid the XW7 Engineer may have been when writing, no way would they write a part number then "exc" XW7 as a meaning to include it, especially when "exc" was already referenced directly above for the M40. This drawing is not completed or 2829791 is being used elsewhere. So you take your pick; (i) 2829791 is used elsewhere or (ii) the paper you provided is not complete. S pack's explanation of an export version pedal is the only thing that is completely plausible (which is what I'm going to beleive till proven wrong) if you want to claim that your paperwork if "final". Cheers Sam

The Drawing has the part number on it with XW7 pointing to the Clutch Pedal, so there is Proof of it.

S pack explanation is plausible ????  maybe to you RS250.

Attached Files

•  XW7 Special Export Vehicle.jpg   39.28K   0 downloads
•  Firenza V8 by Harry Firth.jpg   243.41K   0 downloads
•  Firenza.jpg   47.6K   0 downloads
•  Chev Firenza V8.jpg   87.47K   0 downloads
•  Firenza V8 article.jpg   189.62K   0 downloads
•  Firenza V8 Koni Shocks.jpg   124.4K   0 downloads

[xu2308]

This is how an Engineering Drawing from GMH looks like..   You can easily see the changed part is a shocky located in zone B-5

You can also see in the top right corner that this drawing was revised 20 Aug.77.

Bottom of drawing has the initials of the person who drew it, and the initials of the person who checked it.

You can also see the original was drawn 30 Jun 77

And there is no pencil inned additions...  

 

As you can see, the drawing leaves nothing to interpret, it is clear and concise.  And if there is any doubt, or if they haven't finished any part or dimension on the drawing, the draftsman gives the dimension or part as "To be Advised" ...    Nothing is left to chance.......

 

And that why your drawing only prooves someone wrote on it...  If that amendment was genuine it would be noted just like the drawing below... 

Neil the Holden Guy that GlensXU1 found has told you in that email that Engineers that were Busy, Pencilled in things, did you not read that on the Email there Chaos ????   Just cause you put up this Drawing that does not have it, does not say it did not Happen, as Neil told us it did.

[xu2308]

The 35XW7 LJ V8 was a Special Export Vehicle

Going From what Harry Firth has wrote that GMH had Plans to Export the V8 XW7 LJ to South Africa as they were interested in our Car (Harry's Words)

 

South Africa Cars are Right Hand Drive.

Edited by xu2308, 16 January 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[xu2308]

On the Bottom of every page of the 35XW7 Engineering Parts List, it has Special Export Vehicle.

 

35XW7 = 308 V8 LJ Torana 82911  XW7 Special Export Vehicle.jpg   39.28K   15 downloads

[Rockoz]

EXC has never and will never mean exchange on a drawing.

 

If there was another part to be used it would be in a format similar to this

 

12345 EXC XW7

12347 XW7

[S pack]

I really don't want to get sucked into this whole discussion, because it has become way too personal IMO, but I do have a couple of comments. And a query. My query is, has anyone who is involved in these discussions had the fortune to physically view and examine Al's car? I have only seen photos, and as anyone who has bought items off Ebay or via other sources knows, photos don't tell a complete story, and can often be interpreted differently.

 

Regarding the VIN tag, that was the norm for Adelaide LC's and LJ's. The PSN was scratched onto the back of the ADR tag, meaning a lost VIN tag (which happened relatively frequently with these cars given the repairs to front enders over the years) for an Adelaide car was not as big a problem as it was for a Brisbane car. Brisbane cars had the last four digits of the body number written in wax pen on the back of the ADR tag. So finding the PSN of a Brisbane car that has lost its VIN tag is much harder. Finding the PSN for an Adelaide car is done by simply turning over the ADR tag.

 

I am also trying to figure out the second paragraph though Dave. I reread earlier the article written by Ben Stewart in Issue 84 of Australian Muscle Car. He categorically states on page 68 that Al's car is the pink V8 development XU1. In your recent discussion with Ben, is he now denying that certainty? Or is the last part of that sentence your thoughts? I don't know Ben (though a work colleague is closely acquainted with him via his HT 350 Monaros, so I will be having a chat with him later this week). If they are indeed Ben's thoughts, and not just your's, he probably needs to make a correction in AMC to state that he is no longer certain about the car, as per what he published in AMC #84, so there can be no question of his own credibility. 

 

And please, no one take anything I am saying as a personal affront. It is not meant to be in any way.

Apologies for any confusion.

Ben is not denying any certainty about Al's GTR, that last bit is purely my opinion.

 

Cheers

Dave.

[S pack]

Al, have a look at Drawing sheet No. 4A4-3

WTF does it say at the top???

 

Engine; Type: L4 OPEL

Option: L12, L15

Transmission; Type: 4 speed Floor Shift

Option: MC6

Axle; Type; 3.90

Option: G90

Propeller Shaft; Part No. 2825254

Dia: 3.00

Colour: T.B.A.

 

The XW7 options are listed underneath the Opel options.

The release date is 23 Feb, 1972 and XW7 was added on 20 June 1972.

[arrimar]

While we are discussing GMH engineering, the experimental team newsletters offer an insight into the people and plant operations. Although only 1986 onwards they do talk of the history of various departments and their people.
Scroll down to no.8...
http://www.hrc.org.a...id=57Itemid=125

(Fred Jamison in that 1958 photo above was a manager in the experimental team in 1986, his story is in issue 1.)

[S pack]

I really don't want to get sucked into this whole discussion, because it has become way too personal IMO, but I do have a couple of comments. And a query. My query is, has anyone who is involved in these discussions had the fortune to physically view and examine Al's car? I have only seen photos, and as anyone who has bought items off Ebay or via other sources knows, photos don't tell a complete story, and can often be interpreted differently.

I will be the first to admit I have not personally inspected/seen Al's car and going by what Al said in the deleted thread about his V8 prototype neither did the ex experimental engineer who confirmed Al's car from the photographs that Al was asked to provide to him.

[S pack]

Al, have a look at Drawing sheet No. 4A4-3

WTF does it say at the top???

 

Engine; Type: L4 OPEL

Option: L12, L15

Transmission; Type: 4 speed Floor Shift

Option: MC6

Axle; Type; 3.90

Option: G90

Propeller Shaft; Part No. 2825254

Dia: 3.00

Colour: T.B.A.

 

The XW7 options are listed underneath the Opel options.

The release date is 23 Feb, 1972 and XW7 was added on 20 June 1972.

Forgot to add the above OPEL 4cyl options were for the 823 & 825 models which as we all know are the 6cyl bodied Toranas.

XW7 was added to this document  4 months later.

[xu2308]

Apologies for any confusion.

Ben is not denying any certainty about Al's GTR, that last bit is purely my opinion.

 

Cheers

Dave

HHS Records information know which 3-Adelaide Built LJ GTR's they are, My GTR is one of them, i showed on here the HHS Cetificate that was issued to my GTR,  that says My GTR was a Working V8 Prototype in the V8 XW7 Program.

Ben would of told you that Dave that my GTR is one of the Three GTR's,  YOU Dave Portrayed it as Ben said it was at Engineering at the Time of the XW7 Program and that is all the Number Prove.  HHS Records have the Information which 3-LJ GTR's that Engineering put the 308 V8's in.

I think you owe me a Apologies Dave and Ben for Portraying things in a Different light.

[xu2308]

Al....     Engineers don't revise the drawings, The Draftsman do..   And if a Tradesman or Engineer was working on your car, they would have had a Workshop Copy.  That is where they would have marked any changes to the actual clutch mechanism.   And if that evolution of the clutch worked, the draftsman would immediately revise all drawing showing that assembly.   Engineers will always work off the latest version of the drawing, that is without question.   And you off all people should understand just how big and professional the Engineering & Drawing Department of GM-H were.  

 

This is the GMH Drawing office back in 1958 .    There job then as it is now..  To Draw, Modify, Revise, Check, and Authorise all Engineering drawing for GMH..   There is not a chance, that they were just to busy to update the latest information provided by one of there engineers to the Engineering Drawings.     Your drawing CANNOT be the latest version,  if the is no revision listed,   Because the modification/alteration that someone has hand written on your copy,  would automatically require a revised drawing to be done by the drawing department... 

 

Well maybe you need to Email Neil and chat to Him about Engineers that Pencilled in Add ons to Engineer Drawings, you seen what he said on that Email about Engineers been Busy and Pencilling in Add ons.

[xu2308]

Al, have a look at Drawing sheet No. 4A4-3

WTF does it say at the top???

 

Engine; Type: L4 OPEL

Option: L12, L15

Transmission; Type: 4 speed Floor Shift

Option: MC6

Axle; Type; 3.90

Option: G90

Propeller Shaft; Part No. 2825254

Dia: 3.00

Colour: T.B.A.

 

The XW7 options are listed underneath the Opel options.

The release date is 23 Feb, 1972 and XW7 was added on 20 June 1972.

 

That is the Instruction Deawing for Propeller Shaft Chart

XW7 has a Different Propeller Shaft Part Number to the Opal Propeller Shaft, we are Talking XW7 V8  are we Not, Not Opal Shaft.

The Opal Shaft has nothing to do with the XW7 Program at all.

Remember the XW7 V8 LJ was a Special Export Vehicle.