84 replies to this topic

[Shiney005]

i really want yel327 to tell me why full size cars up to HZ are Holden cars. What has he seen or read that tells him that.

If a HZ Kingswood isn't a Holden, then what is it?

[eyepeeler]

Thanks Byron, appreciate that. The reference to part manuals is at least something we can all see that goes some way to explaining it.

There is plenty in writing. I even scanned some and tried to boot up old Vista and XP machines to post them, but they kept locking up on this forum on Advanced reply. And you cannot post images on this forum with Windows 10, can't even post links to external image hosters!
 
But you all keep thinking with blinkers on.
 
Holden was a car but became a brand. As I said before, like Chevrolet, and I guess like Vegemite in some ways. The Holden car is like the Chevrolet car. The Torana is like the Camaro. However you look at it, the Holden carline is the 48-215 to HZ, and it does live on into WB with commercials and was re-used again later with cars like the Monaro and was applied to commercials also. All you have to do is look at the front cover of any Holden and then Torana parts catalogues, service manuals or even colour charts applicable to Holden, Torana and Gemini (A627 for example). All of these have the HOLDEN brand, or at least the Lion on them. Then they say things like HQ Holden Service manual. The LH Torana equivalent says LH Torana Service Manual. The Parts catalogues say things like HX Holden and Statesman Parts Catalogue, and the Torana ones say like LC Torana Parts Catalogue, or LX Torana and Sunbird. Colour charts say: Holden, Torana and Gemini for example referring to the 3 x car lines GMH were assembling when A627 was current. Others have Sunbird and Holden Commodore on them. The same thing is repeated EVERYWHERE within GMH documentation. If people choose to think otherwise then that is OK, I will always use the only actual correct terminology. If I'm describing what went in where like say rocker covers, i'll always say "this one was used on Holden, that one was used on Torana", there is no other logical way to say it. What else should go on the front cover of a HQ Holden Service Manual? It has to be HQ Holden as that is what it is, the HQ is the Holden car of that period.

[eyepeeler]

Thanks for that Dr Terry.

I'll have to say that I'm 'on the fence' with this one.
 
While Byron is technically correct about Holden being a separate carline to the Torana & Gemini, GM-H themselves have muddied the waters by putting Holden badges on several of the latter.
 
In my book, I refer to anything with a Holden or lion badge as a Holden. It makes it simple. By the time the 80s & 90s got here we saw everything from Barinas, Drovers, Rodeos, Astras, Novas, Apollos, Calibras, Shuttles, Jackaroos, Commodores, Utility, Statesmans, Caprices etc. etc. etc. To argue which is a Holden or which is a Commodore (or not) I believe is a pointless endeavour, if GM-H themselves cannot be consistent. 
 
The problem is  that Holden is (or was) both a marque & a carline. Originally the marque was GM-H & the car was called a Holden. However by the mid to late 70s, after the intro of the Torana, Gemini, Sunbird & Commodore, Holden had 'become' the marque.
 
Even in 'official' literature during the early 70s, GM-H referred to 3 distinct carlines, the Torana, Statesman & Holden. Today it is completely different.
 
Dr Terry

[eyepeeler]

If a HZ Kingswood isn't a Holden, then what is it?

Hey Shiney, I take it from Byron's post that the name Kingswood is just the level of car within the model. Like S, SL GPac and SS are levels within each of the Torana models.
So if I take this correctly, there naming would be the following.
Holden Torana LX SL
Holden Holden HX Kingswood

I guess we never saw levels within the Kingswood name, they only have other names like Belmont, Statesman, Monaro
We never saw a Kingswood SL per say.
One way of looking at it.

[RallyRed]

 holden-kingswood-sl-01.jpg   64.16K   2 downloadsHi Shiney..interesting thread....but wasnt there a Kingswood SL?

Edited by RallyRed, 27 February 2017 - 08:56 AM.

[yel327]

Hey Shiney, I take it from Byron's post that the name Kingswood is just the level of car within the model. Like S, SL GPac and SS are levels within each of the Torana models.
So if I take this correctly, there naming would be the following.
Holden Torana LX SL
Holden Holden HX Kingswood

I guess we never saw levels within the Kingswood name, they only have other names like Belmont, Statesman, Monaro
We never saw a Kingswood SL per say.
One way of looking at it.

 

Pretty close to it. Kingswood is exactly that, it is a Luxury or if you like Trim level of the Holden. Belmont, Kingswood, Premier equate to S, SL, SL/E, SLR SS etc in Torana. Not Gpak though, it is a limited special vehicle package like SS in HQ. A Holden has at various stages:

 

"No name" - HQ-WB cab chassis, HJ-WB ute and van, VG to VF utility etc.

Belmont

Kingswood

Kingswood SL

Monaro

Monaro GTS

GTS (HZ GTS)

Monaro LS

Premier

Sandman (HX to HZ, Sandman was an option package on Belmont and Kingswood in HQ and on Kingswood ute in HJ. HJ Sandman (when applied to HJ Holden ute and van (as in not HJ Kingswood ute) it sort of doesn't really fit!).

 

And then there is the limited packages like SS HQ, HX LE, various others like Vacationers, 50th anniversary etc.

 

Monaro was a bit different though, it signified the coupe versions of the Holden car and it also had luxury levels applied to it where the car was appointed higher than the base Monaro. GMH marketing did get this very wrong though by changing the HQ sports sedan at the last minute to Monaro GTS. It should have remained as either SS sedan or GTS sedan, should never have had Monaro applied to it.

 

Later on again you get other Holden models like:

V2-VZ Monaro.

Crewman and tonners and their varying luxury levels.

Same with Adventra.

 

On top of those, just like in VP-VS Series' there was a separate Statesman LWB vehicle in HQ-WB that was deliberately named separately to not be a Holden, yet I guess economies of scale meant that accessories and certain parts of these still appear with a HOLDEN brand logo. They even deliberately removed the name HOLDEN from the compliance plate of these vehicles (except Dandenong who always appear to stuff this up as they did assemble some HQ Statesman using Elizabeth bodies), yet the plates still wear the GMH name and the Lion.

 

Note the Kingswood SL was introduced in HZ. The Kingswood still remained in commercials, and as a special vehicle package in HZ passenger, but it essentially was the base HZ passenger vehicle unless A9K was exercised on it then it became the HZ Kingswood. This wasn't unusual in a Holden though, as Monaro LS, Monaro GTS, Belmont Sandman etc were all two tiered names in other Holden vehicles. 

 

[kiwi-lilj]

At least it's not a confusing system

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Clear as mud.

[yel327]

It is easy, there were 4 car lines in the early to mid 70's:

Gemini (started as TA and other Torana 4).
Torana
Holden
Statesman.

Simples.

It starts to get confusing when 4cyl Torana gets rebranded Sunbird, and Torana is meant to be superseded by Commodore but Commodore ends up not only replacing the Torana V car but also the Holden passenger car itself.

[rodomo]

yel?

Attached Files

•  simples.jpg   12.69K   2 downloads

[yel327]

That's who I was quoting!

[eyepeeler]

Far out, I can see your line of thinking but hell its full on!!

 

Do you think that Holden were told by GM to do it the Chev way and the way Holden went about that was so loose the more time went on that they didn't care any more labelled it what they wanted? 

Edited by eyepeeler, 27 February 2017 - 05:24 PM.

[a9x868]

If a HZ Kingswood isn't a Holden, then what is it?

we all know your,s is not a holden

or a torana

it,s a repco

put your bloody avatar back up laurie

[yel327]

Ian

 

You still don't get it. That Statesman on its compliance plate is EXACTLY how I described it, by its proper name: Statesman HJ Sedan (no HOLDEN mentioned). Go and look at any other HJ that isn't a Statesman, the word STATESMAN is replaced by HOLDEN. The car has the correct wording at the top too, it was manufactured by the COMPANY called GENERAL MOTORS-HOLDEN'S PTY. LTD. It is the small amount of HQ Dandenong examples that have this stuffed this up, where they forgot to not put HOLDEN on the compliance plate. I have a feeling it may well be because Dandenong used to pre-punch a lot of info into the plates - you see this on Dandenong HX and LX that show chassis numbers like AHX0   xxxxM, the AHX0 or ALX0 are clearly pre- stamped and the other info comes later. As I said if you don't understand it that is OK, but I know I am correct, so there is no need to go trying to make it look otherwise as there is only one correct answer, especially with regards to a Statesman.

 

GENERAL MOTORS-HOLDEN'S PTY LTD was the Company name. They made Holden, Torana, Statesman etc. Simple. Until they started to confuse themselves and others today by using the Holden brand.

 

That HT is an interesting car. It was built (as in hard trimmed and painted) way back in early 1969. 1-A actually had a GTS327 engine in it when the car was assembled as there was no 350 engines here yet. This one sat around as a hard trimmed and painted body until it was finally assembled in May 1970. As the chassis number went on the body straight after paint it still wears its 28A chassis number, but 5/70 compliance. 

 

Windows 10 simply doesn't work with this site. I cannot attach files. I cannot copy and paste text or links. When I use the link button it locks up Explorer and I have to use Task Manager to force it to shutdown. This is on 4-5 x different PC's I've tried it on. I'm also not typing in 100 character links. It simply is not worth the hassle.

Edited by yel327, 28 February 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[S pack]

Byron, piss Internet Explorer off and try another browser. Perhaps Google Chrome or Mozilla Firefox may be better choices.

[yel327]

Not interested in that Dave. Windows 10 Explorer is there, it is free and works perfectly everywhere else! All I have to do is install ad blocker software as all ads seem to now be setup for high speed web access, which I do not have nor need. The only reason I need faster web access is to stop ads slowing down sites, so blocking them fixes that problem! EBay is currently so slow with ads it is not worth it anymore, without a blocker.

[S pack]

Not interested in that Dave. Windows 10 Explorer is there, it is free and works perfectly everywhere else! All I have to do is install ad blocker software as all ads seem to now be setup for high speed web access, which I do not have nor need. The only reason I need faster web access is to stop ads slowing down sites, so blocking them fixes that problem! EBay is currently so slow with ads it is not worth it anymore, without a blocker.

Your choice mate but Firefox and Chrome are both free and are better browsers IMO.

[yel327]

Byron  is this  a Brisbane car ?? 

 

Pagewood. Pagewood became the luxury and coupe assembly and body plant later in HQ, so until Pagewood closed it made all HJ-HZ Statesman and coupe.
 

[yel327]

Byron, all I am saying is that GMH make Holden's just like the tag says...  Sure there are many different specs, even with in specific models.  But none the less they are all Holden's.   And their name always starts with Holden,  Be it Holden Kingswood, Holden Torana, Holden Statesman, or Holden Commodore...   

 

 

And that is because the Kingswood, and all those other models were manufactured by General Motors Holden....  And in my lifetime, Camaro's, Corvette's, and even Nova's are called GM or most commonly Chev products.     And during that same time, our locally build products have been called GMH or most commonly Holden products...

 

In this picture, according to you, non of these cars are Holdens....     Yet every year they won, the headlines said Holden wins Bathurst..  Sure the win's can be broken down to the various models of Holden that won,  Monaro, Torana, Commodore...   but the fact remains, they are Holdens.

 

 

 

 

Maybe not by absolute naming ..  such as Holden by Holden .... as in the 48-215  .......   and will always be researched as such..  try typing Calais into google...  you'll be taken to a Port in Northern France ..    Type in Monaro and you will find all you need to know about a little area in South New South Wales...   

 

But put Holden in front where it should be, and bingo, you get Holden Cars...

 

And Byron for the last time, I and the others get your point on the name plate.... A Holden Calais is a Calais is a Calais by name, A Holden Monaro is a Monaro by name, and so on....    But The point you seem not to understand is it is OK to call them Holdens.  it is not technically wrong by any means..

 

Byron  I using Windows 10 Explorer here with no problems..  cheers mate ..

 

GMH also made Pontiac, Chevrolet, Vauxhall, Bedford etc. All of those tags had GMH on them too and many General Motors-Holden's Pty Ltd as well. None of them are Holdens. The only thing missing from these is the Holden brand Lion on the BODY plate. The Lion is the only thing ID plate wise that links a Statesman more to a Holden than a Chevy truck does. Calling a Statesman a Holden is 100% incorrect, it is nothing of the sort.

 

Not sure what that image is all about, shows all cars as 1900 and the same Monaro 3 times, which is the only Holden car there. The 5-10 Fords there aren't Holdens either. The rest are either Holden branded or a facsimile of the real car.

 

I'm not the one making a point either, I'm simply using the correct terminology, and am incorrectly being told I'm wrong by others. I'll continue to (or attempt to) use the correct terminology every time I type a reply whether that be a post or an email response, always have, always will. And I've had enough of trying to state the only correct answer multiple times. It is how it is, it is how GMH intended. I am not interesting in how confusing GMH marketing got with advertising or incorrect information on the 'web, or old wives' tales that have perpetuated over time. If people simply do not understand simple logic they shouldn't read it. If my technical replies are not wanted and I will be told I'm wrong every time I type the correct information then there is no point being here, that is an easy fix. If the real information or factual information is offensive in some way then there is no point in my ever posting information here as I will not post anything incorrect, unless it is done in error.
 

[rodomo]

GMH also made Pontiac, Chevrolet, Vauxhall, Bedford etc. All of those tags had GMH on them too and many General Motors-Holden's Pty Ltd as well.

And F@4Ds DAMMIT!

By 1923, HMBB were producing 12,000 units per year.[11] During this time, HMBB was the first company to assemble bodies for Ford Australia until their Geelong plant was completed.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden