After reading through knoath's 5 speed thread, a good point was bought up - that there are a large choice of differing clutch setups; hydraulic, cable, rat-trap, with particular attention having to be paid to throw-out forks, thrust bearings etc... and obviously the clutch plate needs to be different....
I am currently looking into all these options, trying to decide on which setup to go with (I'm replacing the aussie 4 speed behind my 253 for a W55 Supra 5 speed). The current clutch setup consists of a cable that goes to a rat-trap.
Can anyone tell me what options I have if I decide to retain my current clutch setup? Is this possible? I know I need to buy a new clutch plate (ie. through Castlemaine Rod Shop or similar).. but I heard I can pretty much use all the other original parts... is it that easy?? The bellhousing I have for the conversion is CRS one (Part # BH40) which I believe is the one that can be used to suit multiple setups.
It seems the most common method is going to a full hyraulic conversion from CRS/Dellow etc.... but I'd really like to find out if I can just keep my current setup, and if this setup works ok?
What path have others taken when putting a Supra box behind a Holden V8? Which standard Holden parts are retained & which other parts need to be purchased?
Any good or bad experiences? Pro's & con's ????
Many thanks.
Supra 5 Spd behind 253/308 - WHICH CLUTCH SETUP?
Started by
LXCHEV
, Aug 28 2006 11:51 PM
103 replies to this topic
#1
LXCHEV
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Posted 28 August 2006 - 11:51 PM
#2
TerrA LX
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:15 AM
i went commodore cable setup with dyna clutch plate.
i just hate the old rat trap (dog trap) and prefer the heavy clutch feel the cable gives.
if you have soft legs or dont like the heavy feel, go hydraulic.
the bell housing will have multipul folk nipple mount locations if it is a multi fit.
i just hate the old rat trap (dog trap) and prefer the heavy clutch feel the cable gives.
if you have soft legs or dont like the heavy feel, go hydraulic.
the bell housing will have multipul folk nipple mount locations if it is a multi fit.
#3
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:39 AM
I'm no clutch guru
But from my undertanding the only thing you actually have to change is the driven plate with the splines. Since the bellhousing should use your original fork and thrust bearing and the cover still bolts to your original flywheel..
The 308 clutch is 255mm diameter so its just a case of using a Toyo driven plate with the right # of splines in that diameter
For extra free clamping force I would have the flywheel machined with a 20 thou step like a Toyota one (this is what I do on the racecar) rather than having a flat flywheel.
Should be an easy swap
At least I hope so as I have a similar kit going behind a 253 or 308 in the future
But from my undertanding the only thing you actually have to change is the driven plate with the splines. Since the bellhousing should use your original fork and thrust bearing and the cover still bolts to your original flywheel..
The 308 clutch is 255mm diameter so its just a case of using a Toyo driven plate with the right # of splines in that diameter
For extra free clamping force I would have the flywheel machined with a 20 thou step like a Toyota one (this is what I do on the racecar) rather than having a flat flywheel.
Should be an easy swap
At least I hope so as I have a similar kit going behind a 253 or 308 in the future
#4
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:44 AM
I prefer to use the pull cable clutch system like the commodore/UC set ups.
Using the BH 40 bell housing, purchase a CB2 cable bracket & either one of CRS's custom clutch forks, or modify a commy/WB V8 clutch fork. The outer protruding edge of the fork from the bell housing needs to be heated & bent towards the rear of the bell housing.
Use a standard UC 6cyl Aussie 4sp clutch cable.
Grab a stock UC 6cyl cable clutch pedal. The top of the pedal needs to be modified to get the pivot ratio correct to suit the longer clutch fork.
Cut the hook off flush with the top of the pedal. Add a 25mm piece between the pedal & the hook to raise the hook up by 25mm & weld it in (good quality welding needed).
Modify the panel above the clutch pedal with a die grinder where the hook will swing to give it enough clearance. It will go right up to the brake pedal bolt crush tube.
It might sound like a lot of work or a bit odd, but its worth the effort, & to only have 1 effective wearing part (the cable) it gives a nice smooth & not heavy clutch.
I've done a lot of these conversions, & even one for "dangerous" for his hatch.
For more info if you need , PM me. More info to give than what it'll take to post, like cable position in the firewall etc etc
Using the BH 40 bell housing, purchase a CB2 cable bracket & either one of CRS's custom clutch forks, or modify a commy/WB V8 clutch fork. The outer protruding edge of the fork from the bell housing needs to be heated & bent towards the rear of the bell housing.
Use a standard UC 6cyl Aussie 4sp clutch cable.
Grab a stock UC 6cyl cable clutch pedal. The top of the pedal needs to be modified to get the pivot ratio correct to suit the longer clutch fork.
Cut the hook off flush with the top of the pedal. Add a 25mm piece between the pedal & the hook to raise the hook up by 25mm & weld it in (good quality welding needed).
Modify the panel above the clutch pedal with a die grinder where the hook will swing to give it enough clearance. It will go right up to the brake pedal bolt crush tube.
It might sound like a lot of work or a bit odd, but its worth the effort, & to only have 1 effective wearing part (the cable) it gives a nice smooth & not heavy clutch.
I've done a lot of these conversions, & even one for "dangerous" for his hatch.
For more info if you need , PM me. More info to give than what it'll take to post, like cable position in the firewall etc etc
#5
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 10:02 AM
I just did the supra conversion, Yep, only mods in the clutch area are the clutch plate with supra splines and spiggot bush. Bottleup hooked me up with a performance clutch setup to suit 
I use cable and its fine,
It is that easy and well worth it 
I have a 6, but i dont see how the v8 would be different..
I use cable and its fine,
It is that easy
and well worth it I have a 6, but i dont see how the v8 would be different..
#6
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Posted 29 August 2006 - 03:40 PM
Thanks for all the replies. Cheers for your detailed answer Toranamuk - what you have described is very similar to a custom setup that a mate of mine has been telling me about too.... both he and some of our other mates have used his setup with great success...they swear by it too...
Ok so my main question now is why go to these lengths to do this custom setup? Why do your prefer it over the factory setup, if it's so easy to just change the clutch plate and use all the original bits? Why don't you like this setup?? It would only have two wearing parts - the cable and the rat-trap...
Thanks again, I really appreciate all these answers!
Ok so my main question now is why go to these lengths to do this custom setup? Why do your prefer it over the factory setup, if it's so easy to just change the clutch plate and use all the original bits? Why don't you like this setup?? It would only have two wearing parts - the cable and the rat-trap...
Thanks again, I really appreciate all these answers!
#7
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Posted 30 August 2006 - 08:40 PM
I prefer to use the cable ste up for customers as its easy to use, easy to adjust, smooth & relatively problem free.
The rattrap has too many moving & wearing parts in it, fulcrums, pivots, clevis pins & all held in by 1 5/16 bolt that commonly breaks. Not a reliable setup, plus gives a heavier pedal than the same clutch that uses a cable only system.
The rattrap has too many moving & wearing parts in it, fulcrums, pivots, clevis pins & all held in by 1 5/16 bolt that commonly breaks. Not a reliable setup, plus gives a heavier pedal than the same clutch that uses a cable only system.
#8
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 12:23 AM
I have done the exact same conversion as Toranamuk has explained above on three occasions with great reliable results.
The rat trap I have also had, and can also vouch for it's horrible feel and unreliability.
Dave
The rat trap I have also had, and can also vouch for it's horrible feel and unreliability.
Dave
#9
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Posted 31 August 2006 - 11:51 PM
Cool, thanks again guys, the info is great.
#10
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 04:21 PM
Another question guys I hope someone may be able to answer for me - with the tailshaft for this conversion.... can I use my standard one and simply change the slip yoke (ie. using a CRS one that suits the Supra box and the Holden tailshaft)... and that's it? Or does the tailshaft also require shortening? (I currently have a standard LX hatch, 253, aussie 4 speed, banjo tailshaft)...
I will be stoked if the length is already correct...
I will be stoked if the length is already correct...
#11
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 07:50 PM
Brett, i tried it with the LJ, but the stock tailshaft was too long, so i had to get it shortened. Best way is to get the box and everything in, and then measure from the back of the box to the centre of the rear uni. Then give the dimetions and tailshaft to a tailshaft place.
For some reason the LX Hatch that the conversion came from for my car used the standard tailshaft, but in the LJ the standard tailshaft wouldn't fit. Go figure. I do understand the Supra box is noticable longer than the Celica box however. I would say you will need to get it shortened.
I used Hardy Spicer in Dandenong.
(03) 9799-3250
1/ 73 Remington Dve
Dandenong South Victoria 3175
In the end balencing and shortening cost me $120
Steve
For some reason the LX Hatch that the conversion came from for my car used the standard tailshaft, but in the LJ the standard tailshaft wouldn't fit. Go figure. I do understand the Supra box is noticable longer than the Celica box however. I would say you will need to get it shortened.
I used Hardy Spicer in Dandenong.
(03) 9799-3250
1/ 73 Remington Dve
Dandenong South Victoria 3175
In the end balencing and shortening cost me $120
Steve
Edited by 73LJWhiteSL, 14 September 2006 - 07:53 PM.
#12
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:49 PM
The standard length V8 tailshaft with the CRS extended slip yoke is the correct set up.
The BH82 bell housing is 5/8ths (16mm) shorter than the V8 Aussie 4sp bell housing, so the slip yoke that CRS supplies is 5/8ths longer & accepts the standard RUJ2030 uni joint.
Fit new premium joints & get it balanced though (or get the balancing co. to supply & fit uni's).
The supra conversion behind a 6cyl requires a 25mm (from memory, although something clicking at 19mm) SHORTER tailshaft, as the length of the supra/celica input shaft is longer than a 6 cyl Aussie 4sp (or 3sp).
The BH82 bell housing is 5/8ths (16mm) shorter than the V8 Aussie 4sp bell housing, so the slip yoke that CRS supplies is 5/8ths longer & accepts the standard RUJ2030 uni joint.
Fit new premium joints & get it balanced though (or get the balancing co. to supply & fit uni's).
The supra conversion behind a 6cyl requires a 25mm (from memory, although something clicking at 19mm) SHORTER tailshaft, as the length of the supra/celica input shaft is longer than a 6 cyl Aussie 4sp (or 3sp).
#13
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 11:33 PM
Toranamuk, you're a champ. I was hoping that was the case... and that explains perfectly why Steve had to have his shortened.. now everything makes sense!
I've got a great bloke I use for tailshafts in Ferntree Gully, so I'll get him to fit brand new uni's and balance it all tomorrow... ace! The hatchback may just be back in action on Saturday!
Thanks again guys, huge help as always
I've got a great bloke I use for tailshafts in Ferntree Gully, so I'll get him to fit brand new uni's and balance it all tomorrow... ace! The hatchback may just be back in action on Saturday!
Thanks again guys, huge help as always
#14
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Posted 14 September 2006 - 11:44 PM
Bugger. I don't think I have a CRS extended slip yoke after all... I just measured the Toyota yoke I do have, and it's identical in length to my standard Torana/Aussie 4 speed one. If it's only 16mm difference we're talking about though, I could probably get away with it, but I'll wait to get the measurements and then suss it out over the weekend.... I would rather make sure I get it perfect...
#15
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Posted 15 September 2006 - 11:50 AM
just make sure you have about an inch ( i think its an inch) of travel for the yoke in the back of the box once installed to allow for suspension travel etc.
#16
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Posted 16 September 2006 - 01:53 PM
Ok here's my latest drama (I am not having any luck yet).....
I ended up deciding to stick with the standard clutch setup initially, and see how it goes.... then later down the track if it does prove horrible then I was going to upgrade to the custom setup mentioned above.
Anyway, so I've fitted the correct Toyota clutch plate, and retained all the other stuff as original Aussie 4 speed (pressure plate, thrust bearing, throwout fork etc)... and I was going to use the original rat-trap/cable combo.... But I've just gone to bolt the rat-trap bracket up, and it's totally different on this CRS bellhousing! There's no way it will bolt up. The bracket has 2 bolts, perfectly aligned (flat) to each other. The CRS belhousing has a massive bulge where the bottom bolt goes in (and therefore requires a much longer bolt).... what is going on???? How am I meant to make this work???
355LX - you mentioned you've used the rat-trap setup... how did you bolt it all up?? Did you have the BH40 CRS bellhousing????
Bugger bugger bugger :(
I ended up deciding to stick with the standard clutch setup initially, and see how it goes.... then later down the track if it does prove horrible then I was going to upgrade to the custom setup mentioned above.
Anyway, so I've fitted the correct Toyota clutch plate, and retained all the other stuff as original Aussie 4 speed (pressure plate, thrust bearing, throwout fork etc)... and I was going to use the original rat-trap/cable combo.... But I've just gone to bolt the rat-trap bracket up, and it's totally different on this CRS bellhousing! There's no way it will bolt up. The bracket has 2 bolts, perfectly aligned (flat) to each other. The CRS belhousing has a massive bulge where the bottom bolt goes in (and therefore requires a much longer bolt).... what is going on???? How am I meant to make this work???
355LX - you mentioned you've used the rat-trap setup... how did you bolt it all up?? Did you have the BH40 CRS bellhousing????
Bugger bugger bugger :(
Edited by LXCHEV, 16 September 2006 - 01:54 PM.
#17
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Posted 20 September 2006 - 12:21 PM
Called CRS and they're not totally sure about all this either - they thought too that the standard setup should work ok.... he wanted to know if my rat-trap is definitely a V8 one, and not perhaps a 6cyl one or something? How do I tell the difference between a 6 and an 8 rat-trap? Any ideas?
#18
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Posted 20 September 2006 - 04:36 PM
Sorry for the late reply LXCHEV, the rattrap set-up I had was with a toploader, but I never had that one apart so I dont know what brand of bellhousing it was.
I am not 100% sure, but there may be a couple of different rat trap assemblies amoungst the holden V8 line-up over the years. I tried to fit the factory LX Torana rat trap set-up on to my HJ monaro, but it seems to be different, and wont play ball. It may only be the part of the assembly that attach's to the firewall that is different for mine, but as it's not a primary concern (selling it as non-running car), I have'nt persued the problem.
Maybe a question for Dr Terry to clear up, if there are in fact different ones out there.
Dave
I am not 100% sure, but there may be a couple of different rat trap assemblies amoungst the holden V8 line-up over the years. I tried to fit the factory LX Torana rat trap set-up on to my HJ monaro, but it seems to be different, and wont play ball. It may only be the part of the assembly that attach's to the firewall that is different for mine, but as it's not a primary concern (selling it as non-running car), I have'nt persued the problem.
Maybe a question for Dr Terry to clear up, if there are in fact different ones out there.
Dave
#19
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Posted 22 September 2006 - 12:02 AM
Thanks Dave.
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Posted 22 September 2006 - 12:25 AM
if it has the two bolt holes inline then it should suite the slave cylinder for hyd. setup.
also avliable for the above from dellows is a cast bracket that allows cable fitment (and you will need a different folk)
also avliable for the above from dellows is a cast bracket that allows cable fitment (and you will need a different folk)
#21
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:24 PM
Ok, time to dig up this old thread.
I am over this rat-trap setup... the bolt has already snapped on me once and the swinging arm brackets broke too... but we repaired it & I've been cruising happily ever since.
However, it's starting to feel a bit average again, I had a quick look and things are getting messy under there, hahaha!! I'm hoping to just get a few more weeks of cruising in, while I get all the parts together to do the full Commodore / UC pull-type cable setup.
I'm already using the BH40 bellhousing, so I'm going to order the CB2 cable bracket.
Toranamuk - in your original post, you mentioned CRS sell 'custom forks'. Is this a listed item available off the shelf? What do I need to ask for? Any help would be great.
I'm also now on the lookout for a UC 6cyl aussie 4 spd cable - hopefully Rare Spares sell these, and then I need to find a stock UC clutch pedal - will hit the wreckers this week.
More to come soon.... wish me luck
I am over this rat-trap setup... the bolt has already snapped on me once and the swinging arm brackets broke too... but we repaired it & I've been cruising happily ever since.
However, it's starting to feel a bit average again, I had a quick look and things are getting messy under there, hahaha!! I'm hoping to just get a few more weeks of cruising in, while I get all the parts together to do the full Commodore / UC pull-type cable setup.
I'm already using the BH40 bellhousing, so I'm going to order the CB2 cable bracket.
Toranamuk - in your original post, you mentioned CRS sell 'custom forks'. Is this a listed item available off the shelf? What do I need to ask for? Any help would be great.
I'm also now on the lookout for a UC 6cyl aussie 4 spd cable - hopefully Rare Spares sell these, and then I need to find a stock UC clutch pedal - will hit the wreckers this week.
More to come soon.... wish me luck
#22
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:52 PM
LXCHEV,
CRS used to list a heavy duty brass/bronze clutch fork that was cast to suit the BH40 & CB2 bracket. Hopefully they still make it.
It is cast so that the hook end points slightly rearwards & it retains the same distance from the cable mount to the hook that the original holden setup should have.
You can heat up & bend the original clutch fork carefully, I have done it & then welded some small support braces on the inner edges where it has been heated & bent.
I do have some clutch pedal cable hooks being laser cut so that any pedal can be converted, I need to & will follow them up, as they have been there since new years so hopefully some progress can happen soon.
The clutch cables are still available new, if you cant get one or get stuck let me know.
Craig.
CRS used to list a heavy duty brass/bronze clutch fork that was cast to suit the BH40 & CB2 bracket. Hopefully they still make it.
It is cast so that the hook end points slightly rearwards & it retains the same distance from the cable mount to the hook that the original holden setup should have.
You can heat up & bend the original clutch fork carefully, I have done it & then welded some small support braces on the inner edges where it has been heated & bent.
I do have some clutch pedal cable hooks being laser cut so that any pedal can be converted, I need to & will follow them up, as they have been there since new years so hopefully some progress can happen soon.
The clutch cables are still available new, if you cant get one or get stuck let me know.
Craig.
#23
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Posted 07 April 2008 - 11:57 PM
Wicked, thanks Craig. I'll let you know how I go mate.
- Brett.
- Brett.
#24
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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:00 AM
Hi LXCHEV,
Here the throwout forks from CRS catalog that are the right type.
Hope this helps you some.
A wrecker may be cheaper for one from a HZ-WB or Commy v8.
Cheers
Here the throwout forks from CRS catalog that are the right type.
Hope this helps you some.
A wrecker may be cheaper for one from a HZ-WB or Commy v8.
Cheers
#25
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Posted 08 April 2008 - 10:55 AM
So which one do I need for use with the BH40 bellhousing?
Thanks UC HATCH.
Thanks UC HATCH.
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