13 replies to this topic

[TrickyD]

Hi all,

 

Here's a doozy of a query.

 

The motor and battery.in a LJ S

• 202 red HQ race spec (mild)
• 510 CCA, plenty enough to kick it over
• No extra electrics for the battery to drain *
• Battery holds charge no problem on cold start

The problem,

 

Every time the car runs and reaches operating temp, if you turn the car off, and try to start it again (like immediately or a few minutes) it won't crank over - wait 15 - 20 mins and it has enough crank to start again.

 

Other important info.

• So I live in WA and the car lives in Vic (In my Dads garage) and every time I come to vic and use the car I have the same problem. In short the battery and car isn't used much.
• So the theory is because it might be 6 months or whatever and therefore the battery drains to zero and is cactus.*
• I've been to battery world twice with this problem over the years and asked which type of battery (cca, plates etc.) 
• They've suggested that because the battery is not being used it drains and the only solution is a trickle charger*. Which is done. In short their belief is that because the battery is not being used the only option is trickle charging and there is not a battery that exists.
• I don't believe this to be the solution, surely a brand new battery without any external drain should not just drain out on its own without a trickle charge.

Anyone have any suggestions?

[yel327]

If you leave any car for months, you should put a trickle/maintenance charger on it. They go flat otherwise, just the imperfect nature of a lead acid battery. The batteries in my Premier and Suzuki are both over 5 years old and spend most of their lives with a small charger on them. Never had an issue.

[IanC]

Yep agree. I have them for my motorcycles. I used to get just over 12 months life out of a battery. With a trickle charger my batteries are over 4 years old and still going. It's a lot cheaper to buy a trickle charger than a new battery.

[hanra]

Gotta leave em on float charge bloke. Nature of the beast.

[claysummers]

I've had issues where the starter draws a lot of current when it gets hot. I wonder if this could be a contributing factor in your case.

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[LXCHEV]

Another vote here for using a trickle charger on cars that aren't used frequently - it's a must-have, and is the best thing you can do to maintain a healthy battery and prolong it's life.

 

Back to your other issue where the car doesn't like cranking when hot. Sounds like old fashioned voltage drop (very common). Assume you have standard wiring. It's common practice to install a relay into the starter wiring, so that it provides a better source of voltage to the starter when hot (instead of relying on the factory wiring). I've done this on several cars over the years to fix that exact same issue. Do some googling, there should be plenty of info on it around.

[RallyRed]

A recent quality type charger I purchased had a spiel about it's ability to de sulphate the battery.. Thinking that may be your issue?

 

WHAT IS A SULFATED BATTERY?

Battery sulfation is a condition that can affect the performance of lead-acid batteries.  It occurs when lead sulfate crystals accumulate on battery plates, typically when a battery is stored or cycled in a partially discharged state of charge.  Sulfated batteries resist normal recharge service and usually lose capacity over time.  The root cause of sulfation is usually traced to ineffective battery charging service, although additional factors such as short-cycling, storing batteries in a partial state of discharge, and operation in high temperature environments will open the door to this problem. 

 

SIGNS & SYMPTOMS OF SULFATED BATTERY

Identifying the indications  of sulfation is crucial to prevent further damage to your battery. Here are some common indicators of a sulfated battery:

1. Diminished battery performance: One of the primary indications of sulfation is a decrease in battery discharge performance. For example,  battery users may experience difficulty starting or powering applications shortly after installation, with unexpected reductions in the battery's capacity.
    
2. Slow or incomplete charging: Sulfation affects the battery's ability to fully recharge. Sulfated battery plates create significant internal resistance within the battery, and a sure indication of this condition is when your battery takes longer than usual to reach a full charge. 

[RallyRed]

p.s. simple way to check ( as we did the other week with a track car that had a apparent hot start issue). Turned out to be a fully charged, shitty battery.

 

Car jacked up or on a hoist, front wheel off to get easy access to the starter motor.

Get a voltmeter.

 

At the battery -

1. Measure the voltage on the outgoing +ve cable connection.( say 13 volts)

2 Get some one to crank it over and repeat step 1.

If you get a substantially lower number, battery is flat, sulphated, old, or dodgy connection .

If all good, .....move  on ...if not resolve them one at a time. 

 

Then -

 

3. Measure the voltage at the big stud on the starter where the cable comes in from the battery.( battery volts).

4. Crank the car over and repeat step 3.

If #4 is lots less than #3, then start looking for a bad starter connection, bag lug crimp etc

If you think the main connection or the big crimp lug is at fault - put one meter lead on the stud and the other on the cable lug, should read zero volts, then crank it again and see if you get a different /number, indicating a poor connection.

 

5. You can repeat 3 & 4 
, but this time on the big connection that goes INTO the starter motor, this time looking for a dodgy solenoid connection.

 

Hope that all makes sense.

 

The other thing that we did that makes it clearly apparent that the whole circuit needs to be in good nick - stuck a clamp ammeter on the cable to the started and cranked it = 345amps. 

 

Having said all that, you could just throw a good spare battery in it and see if the issue dissapears    

[TrickyD]

Thanks everyone for your input and advice!

 

So after much head scratching, I found out that the starter motor was the issue.

 

I rang a tuner in Carrum Downs that was recommended to me for other purposes, I asked him if he had an idea and he responded it's either the starter motor or the timing.

 

Turns out that once the protective coating around the bushings inside the starter deteriorate they don't like heat and won't crank over.

 

So installed a new starter, drove around for a while in stop start traffic to get the car up to operating temperature then back to base.

 

The moment of truth, turned the motor off and hoped the new starter would crank over, sure enough no problems. 

 

Wasn't the battery, it was the starter motor, of course will charge the battery if needed.

[S pack]

Thanks everyone for your input and advice!

 

So after much head scratching, I found out that the starter motor was the issue.

 

I rang a tuner in Carrum Downs that was recommended to me for other purposes, I asked him if he had an idea and he responded it's either the starter motor or the timing.

 

Turns out that once the protective coating around the bushings inside the starter deteriorate they don't like heat and won't crank over.

 

So installed a new starter, drove around for a while in stop start traffic to get the car up to operating temperature then back to base.

 

The moment of truth, turned the motor off and hoped the new starter would crank over, sure enough no problems. 

 

Wasn't the battery, it was the starter motor, of course will charge the battery if needed.

Sorry I missed your original post. We had the exact same issue with our VE SV6 on our trip to Melbourne last year. The car would start faultlessly when cold or not too hot.

We would stop for a rest break or lunch or to refuel and sometimes the engine wouldn't crank over. Thinking it was the battery I bought a booster battery from Supercheap at Raymond Terrace, the wife stayed with the car with the engine running for a quick getaway.

We stopped again at Gundagai and with all confidence I thought, if it won't start again she'll be right, I've got the booster battery which comes fully charged. Nope the booster battery didn't help. Even another blokes 4wd hooked up to it wouldn't start. Even the NRMA guy had trouble getting it started. He said the starter was drawing a lot of AMPS and perhaps our battery was unable to cope.

It was when we had problems again at Seymore that the light bulb moment finally hit. It's not the battery it is the starter motor.

 

Took it to an auto sparky in Melbourne the next day and he reckoned it could be all manner of other problems but not the starter motor, starter motors don't do that.

Anyway I convinced (insisted) him to replace the starter motor. I think he was seeing me loading the parts cannon.

End result, all good, no more starting issues since. I even sent the Auto sparky an email to inform him of the result when we got home.

 

I believe it is the varnish coating on the copper windings degrading and when the windings soak up too much heat they expand and short out.
 

Edited by S pack, 23 December 2023 - 01:01 PM.

[TrickyD]

I've had issues where the starter draws a lot of current when it gets hot. I wonder if this could be a contributing factor in your case.

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Found out it was the starter. If only the starter motor could talk to us!

[S pack]

Found out it was the starter. If only the starter motor could talk to us!

Oh but it was. Just a pity we don't understand it's language.
 

[claysummers]

I've had issues where the starter draws a lot of current when it gets hot. I wonder if this could be a contributing factor in your case.

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[claysummers]

Another trick is to run earth lead from a starter to bellhousing bolt to negative battery terminal. I had to do this on my 250 XF. First and last ford I’ve owned.


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