I'm after one that can be used for hydraulic U-Turns and a parking brake.
Where can I get one in Melbourne?
What brands are better?
Price?
Hydraulic handbrake
Started by
_CHOPPER_
, Oct 26 2006 07:15 PM
30 replies to this topic
#2
FastEHHolden
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 07:47 PM
One would assume its not for a road registered car..because a mechanical handbrake is a legal requirement.
Could you use a line locker kit? or 2..I am sure you could come up with the required design.
Could you use a line locker kit? or 2..I am sure you could come up with the required design.
#3
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 07:54 PM
As EH says ^, not sure of the reason why they are illegal, perhaps if all the fluid is lost then there is still some way of stopping........or it might be more to do with that hydraulic systems can suffer small bleed downs, not obvious in normal braking use, but over several hours when a vehicle is parked this can result in release of the brake.
They must be available somewhere, standard kit for competitive rally cars.
They must be available somewhere, standard kit for competitive rally cars.
#4
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:00 PM
It won't be on a street registered vehicle. I saw one today for $380, which is why I started the thread. As the line locker sounds like a cheaper option, I think I'll be using one of those instead.
Anyone know the current price for a line locker? Last time I looked they were $170.
Anyone know the current price for a line locker? Last time I looked they were $170.
#5
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:01 PM
I built the "Storm Rider" utes for the Sydney Easter show year before last, and we put Hydraulic Handbrakes in them, I think from memory we got them from Revolution Race Gear (www.revolutionracegear.com.au) ... If not from them, then they helped us get them.
#6
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:07 PM
Revolution are around the corner from my mums place. I'll pop in one day after raiding mums lolly jar.
#7
_torana_
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 08:53 PM
how would a line locker work as a handbrake?
you still need a mechanism to charge the oil pressure and to keep it charged. A line locker is just a solenoid that does the oposite, ( when energized it stops pressure going to your rear brakes.
am i missing something? can someone explain how a linelocker would work as a handbrake? ( you certainly dont want to keep a solenoid on all the time to act as your handbrake )
cheers julian
you still need a mechanism to charge the oil pressure and to keep it charged. A line locker is just a solenoid that does the oposite, ( when energized it stops pressure going to your rear brakes.
am i missing something? can someone explain how a linelocker would work as a handbrake? ( you certainly dont want to keep a solenoid on all the time to act as your handbrake )
cheers julian
#8
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:08 PM
You can buy line locker kits specifically for handbrake use... Im not sure how it works, but you can buy them. I am planning on finding out more info on them in the future. My Torana wont have a handbrake in the cabin, so trying to find other ways to stop it shifting on car trailers etc... Small line locker button under the seat or on the dash would work a treat... Problem then arises if you use a kill switch to isolate the battery power... But you can get them!
#9
FastEHHolden
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:16 PM
well you could use it to stop pressure getting to your front bakes...operating rears only from the foot brake.....If you used it in conjunction with another master cylinder off a hand brake lever and again using the line locker to shut pressure out of the front brakes it would work off a lever instead of the foot.
And with the solenoid fitted in the same place it could be used as a park brake by applying the brakes, operating the solenoid and releasing your foot from the pedal..thus holding pressure in the front brake system.
Design of the system would depend on whether you had single, twin or triple outlets on your brake master cylinder.
And with the solenoid fitted in the same place it could be used as a park brake by applying the brakes, operating the solenoid and releasing your foot from the pedal..thus holding pressure in the front brake system.
Design of the system would depend on whether you had single, twin or triple outlets on your brake master cylinder.
#10
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:23 PM
why would you use a hand brake lever and a line locker?If you used it in conjunction with another master cylinder off a hand brake lever and again using the line locker to shut pressure out of the front brakes it would work off a lever instead of the foot.
Design of the system would depend on whether you had single, twin or triple outlets on your brake master cylinder.
the other important system design would be battery life
cheers julian
#11
FastEHHolden
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 09:28 PM
Your not thinking creatively...a line locker is just an electric tap...it lets fluid go in and not come out..or it can keep fluids out...be it front or rear brakes...it doesn't have to get used the way the instructions on the packet say..its just a "serving suggestion"
Use a lever and another master for a more conventional feel...I cant see me doing flick turns using one foot on the accelerator and on on the brake..if you use a hand lever it would feel right
Solenoids draw a poffteenth of an amp...i'm pretty sure the battery will cope
Use a lever and another master for a more conventional feel...I cant see me doing flick turns using one foot on the accelerator and on on the brake..if you use a hand lever it would feel right
Solenoids draw a poffteenth of an amp...i'm pretty sure the battery will cope
Edited by FastEHHolden, 26 October 2006 - 09:29 PM.
#12
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:26 PM
Solenoid current in a relay can be low, but still significant ~0.1-2A, = ~200-500 battery hours. The power use of the solenoid for items that do heavier things are much higher than this, like an lpg solenoid, antidieseling solenoid etc, can be 0.5-1A, ~100-55 hours. I dont really know what sort of power these line locker valves use, but it would need to be more than a switching relay. However, motorised taps are different, the tap being powered to wind up and down, they dont need any power once in the desired position.
My concern about the hydraulic leak down is real, maybe things have changed since 20 years ago, parked rally/road cars fitted with hydraulic hand brake would eventually roll away making it necessary to carry wheel chocks for parking.
My concern about the hydraulic leak down is real, maybe things have changed since 20 years ago, parked rally/road cars fitted with hydraulic hand brake would eventually roll away making it necessary to carry wheel chocks for parking.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 26 October 2006 - 10:28 PM.
#13
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 11:28 PM
Another way this could be achieved is to install a one way check valve in the brake line. It would be fitted in the line to the rear brakes in such a way that it allows brake fluid flow to the rear brakes. So by applying the foot brake, the rear brakes are applied, but cannot be released due to the one way check valve. To release the brakes, a normally closed electrically operated solenoid is plumbed in parallell with the check valve. That way, when the rear brakes need to be released, the solenoid is opened. This then allows the brake fluid to bypass the check valve and allow the brakes to release.
#14
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 26 October 2006 - 11:48 PM
That may work Chop, but the leakdown effect with the conventional hydraulic hand brake has to occur in the "master cylinder" of the hand brake device and/or the wheel cylinders(theres no where else for leakage?), if it occurs in the wheel cylinders the "roll away effect' would still be there?
Just thinking out loud here..........may be completely off track.
Just thinking out loud here..........may be completely off track.
#15
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 12:00 AM
You are assuming there is going to be leakage. I'm sure dattoman WILL make sure he won't have any problems with his brakes. My Econovan has travelled 245,000 KM since I bought it new. I'm not easy on brakes, especially when I have over a tonne on board. The M/C, front calipers and rear wheel cylinders have never been touched since I've owned it. Yes, the brake fluid has been changed a couple of times, but I've never had a fluid leak. The brake mobs have the seal technology fairly good these days.
In hydraulics ( particularly with rams ), it's not unusual to have some seepage past the internal seals when the rams are extended and under load. The rams are designed for lifting purposes, there are lockout pins which are designed to support the load and make the rams stay in position. Generally, the only time a ram is designed to support a load, it is limited to a max. of 200 KG, or two pepole when used in an elevating platform unit.
In hydraulics ( particularly with rams ), it's not unusual to have some seepage past the internal seals when the rams are extended and under load. The rams are designed for lifting purposes, there are lockout pins which are designed to support the load and make the rams stay in position. Generally, the only time a ram is designed to support a load, it is limited to a max. of 200 KG, or two pepole when used in an elevating platform unit.
#16
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 12:17 AM
By leak down(as in when doing a test on a engine cylinder) I was referring to internal leakage within the piston/bores of the master cylinder and wheel cylinders. As I understand it this happens to a degree in all car setups(perhaps not with current seals), it just isnt significant in normal use, but is when the system is required to hold the pressure over many hours.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 27 October 2006 - 12:27 AM.
#17
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:04 AM
Something else I remember hearing to consider: brake fluid contracting as it cools....
#18
dattoman
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 01:26 AM
can't run 2 master cylinders unless the 2nd is in series ........ hence the handbrake cylinder
If cost is a factor you won't buy a decent handle with a ratcheting lockable handle
Stewart Wilkins Motorsport has a nice one but they are expensive....... but very good quality
One forum member has one in his car
If cost is a factor you won't buy a decent handle with a ratcheting lockable handle
Stewart Wilkins Motorsport has a nice one but they are expensive....... but very good quality
One forum member has one in his car
#19
TerrA LX
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 06:50 AM
if pulling the hand brake is a problem then install a foot brake aka LH/LX.
#20
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 06:32 PM
It's for the drag car. The handbrake is more needed for when transporting the vehicle on the back of the tray I will eventually purchase. As it probably won't have a cable winch, the idea was to have a park brake, in conjunction with having the vehicle in park and using load restraint straps. The straps would probably be placed around the diff and tied to the tray somewhere. I'm not interested in setting up a cable handbrake, hence the idea of the hydraulic handbrake. Whilst having a think this afternoon, I was thinking along the lines of using a rotary tap inline with the brakes. Apply the brakes and close the valve. Cheap and simple. The taps only cost a few bucks, require no electrics and would do the job.
#21
Stedz_lc
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Posted 27 October 2006 - 07:17 PM
The setup or two ive done at work is just a trailer brake master cylinder! Exactly the same setup if u wanted to use as an actual hand brake, use the same as a trailer hand brake. The couple we have done for racing purpose used a speacial braket with handle n the master has to have an inline style setup so u still have rear brakes all the time n then the handbrake doesn't have an effect on your foot brake Make sense probably not!
Cheers
Stedz
Cheers
Stedz
#22
rodomo
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Posted 29 October 2006 - 03:26 AM
Subaru have a "hillholder". Eliminates hand brake starts on hills. It is a line lock. It locks the fronts and is operated off the clutch. Releases the brake pressure as "friction point" is acheived at the clutch and is adjustable. Works off the clutch cable from memory and must be street legal as a few models had it. Brumby?? Mid 80's Wagons??? Could easily be adapted to lock rears with a bit of hydraulic engineering
The following is a snippet from another site:
Hill Holder Clutch: A Subaru exclusive (originally a Studebaker exclusive...). Manual transmission models only. A small rear brake that, after being set by the brake pedal, when the clutch was still depressed the car car would simply not roll down a hill! A very popular feature. On all manual trans. Legacy Ls in the 1990s and many earlier models. There is no hill-holder available with any 2.5L engine (1996 was the first year for the 2.5L) and it was discontinued for the 2000 model. Note: April 2002: hill-holder will be used again on the 03 Forester. This will be the first use in any 2.5L engine.
I think this refers to the Studey trans brake as I am sure the Subby works off the front wheel brakes.
Prehistoric traction control. Maybe we should tell Skaifey?
The following is a snippet from another site:
Hill Holder Clutch: A Subaru exclusive (originally a Studebaker exclusive...). Manual transmission models only. A small rear brake that, after being set by the brake pedal, when the clutch was still depressed the car car would simply not roll down a hill! A very popular feature. On all manual trans. Legacy Ls in the 1990s and many earlier models. There is no hill-holder available with any 2.5L engine (1996 was the first year for the 2.5L) and it was discontinued for the 2000 model. Note: April 2002: hill-holder will be used again on the 03 Forester. This will be the first use in any 2.5L engine.
I think this refers to the Studey trans brake as I am sure the Subby works off the front wheel brakes.
Prehistoric traction control. Maybe we should tell Skaifey?
Edited by rodomo, 29 October 2006 - 03:38 AM.
#23
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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:06 AM
Only reason I could see for hydraulic handbrake would be drifting (fully sik). For transporting, why wouldn't you stick with a cable setup, and avoid the additional unnecessary expense?
#24
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Posted 29 October 2006 - 09:17 AM
I have a cheap hydraulic ball valve in my rear brake line to isolate the rear brakes. I have used this in the past to lock on the brakes. For what you want to do it would probably be effective.I was thinking along the lines of using a rotary tap inline with the brakes. Apply the brakes and close the valve. Cheap and simple. The taps only cost a few bucks, require no electrics and would do the job.
#25
_DocDamage_
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Posted 29 October 2006 - 10:18 AM
If its for transport only why not make up a brace to hold the foot brake on?
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