Not bagging you or the topic GroupC...just trying to add a reality check for the big cheque holders...I want/am building with NOS ..a replica Group C..I am a little peeved when I am told..we dont want you here because it aint the original and doesnt have the original log books...82911 is in if the rules change..(on the other hand we stand here and look at NC and go...what the f???)If you think that the Group Cs will last forever running around at a racetrack banging guards for the next 20 years you are in a world of your own or not taking the right drugs....my point is...somewhere...SOON!..the values of these cars will have the owners parking them..it is a simple case of economics...then Group C/A DIES!..unless forward thinking is applied...and we are welcomed...within the soon to be published qualifying rules...the numbers will dwindle to nothing...simple plain economics of a class that isnt now and never will be sustainable....using only original product...or am I on drugs and the only one that can see where it is headed? Greg??
R
Group C's & A's on TV again
Started by
_GroupC_
, Jan 12 2007 10:47 PM
61 replies to this topic
#27
_rorym_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 12:17 AM
As for not getting it off the ground...they said that about V8 Supercars ....because CAMS would not condone it..said it would never work..we wont do it!!!........History proves the knockers wrong..."If you build it...they will come!" and they will..CAMS can come for the ride or not.....or miss out again..AVESCO part 2?..Maybe..I dont really give a crap...I will build my car...run it in sprints and hillclimbs and stuff and have fun...thats why I do it...but there is a golden opputunity gone missing here unless someone grabs it with both hands.
R
R
Edited by rorym, 18 January 2007 - 12:22 AM.
#28
_groupa_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 05:27 AM
and all i am saying is there are still plenty of f5000's out there racing and putting on a spectical and they havn't had to build replica's of them
#30
_73lj202_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:43 AM
GroupC, I'm with you mate,I know a mate who runs some orginals and he does it because he can and enjoys it,like alot of people who are now attending the meetings. I enjoy this racing I guess because I grew up with it and I enjoy it more than the crap V8Supercars they race today.Yes these cars are gaining value,but some of the owners aren't out there to WIN,there out there just to enjoy driving there hero's cars from the past and improve there times on different tracks and let people see these cars.Did anyone actually watch In Pit Lane last night or is the topic to remain on a subject that t this point in time does not have a hope in hell of getting off the ground.
I know a lot of the Group C and A owners that race their pride and joy. Most are not rich, just wage and salary earners the same as you and I. The cars were bought because we grew up watching them and had a passion to own one or in some cases, a few more. I do not know one of these people who even consider that the increasing value would ever stop them from racing them.
My goal when posting the topic originally was to hopefully get more people interested in the evergrowing Group C & A catagory, not start a debate over replicas. So, if you really do like the spectacle, turn up and watch them race instead of tying to find negatives and alternatives.
Yes I think there should also be a class where replicas can race,BUT if there replica's they should be built to the rules they are copied from not any. Anyway my 2cents.
#31
_82911_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:58 AM
I think that groupa 's version of racing must extend more towards "exhibition laps". Whilst Rorym is talking real panel to panel racing.
Groupa and groupc we all openly welcome your input on this topic.......
I understand that the groupa/c associations rules have been written to protect an endagered species, and that many owners are concerned that if replicas were allowed it would adversely affect the value of their cars. I Don't believe that will happen...A REPLICA will always be just that...A REPLICA!
I realize a lot of owners of Group a/c cars bought them when they were worth next to nothing. BUT the fact remains that they are increasing in value as a commodity rather than a useful tool. Group a/c association must make plans for the future and take this into consideration, or "as the boat sails they will be left on the island"
Many people on this site hold the Torana in quite high regard especially the racing cars that were created from the Homologation models of the era, so most would cut there middle finger off to get the opportunity to race an A9X or L34. To ignore the writting on the wall and to continue to deny replica racing is in my opinion short sighted.
All it is going to take is 10 like minded people to build suitable replica's and draught a set of rules. Take that to the AASA if you don't want to deal with CAMS argument that there is already a group "representative of that era"...
All I am saying is that the Groupa/c association can no longer remain deaf and defiant to the calls to move forward and at least open discussion on the topic of replica and a time frame for their implimentation.
Over to you Groupa.. and c...
Cheers Greg..
Groupa and groupc we all openly welcome your input on this topic.......
I understand that the groupa/c associations rules have been written to protect an endagered species, and that many owners are concerned that if replicas were allowed it would adversely affect the value of their cars. I Don't believe that will happen...A REPLICA will always be just that...A REPLICA!
I realize a lot of owners of Group a/c cars bought them when they were worth next to nothing. BUT the fact remains that they are increasing in value as a commodity rather than a useful tool. Group a/c association must make plans for the future and take this into consideration, or "as the boat sails they will be left on the island"
Many people on this site hold the Torana in quite high regard especially the racing cars that were created from the Homologation models of the era, so most would cut there middle finger off to get the opportunity to race an A9X or L34. To ignore the writting on the wall and to continue to deny replica racing is in my opinion short sighted.
All it is going to take is 10 like minded people to build suitable replica's and draught a set of rules. Take that to the AASA if you don't want to deal with CAMS argument that there is already a group "representative of that era"...
All I am saying is that the Groupa/c association can no longer remain deaf and defiant to the calls to move forward and at least open discussion on the topic of replica and a time frame for their implimentation.
Over to you Groupa.. and c...
Cheers Greg..
#32
_rorym_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:20 AM
"Yes I think there should also be a class where replicas can race,BUT if there replica's they should be built to the rules they are copied from"
Agree totally. ^^^^ What he said...Well put Greg.
R
Agree totally. ^^^^ What he said...Well put Greg.
R
Edited by rorym, 18 January 2007 - 08:22 AM.
#33
_73lj202_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:47 AM
Exactly!"Yes I think there should also be a class where replicas can race,BUT if there replica's they should be built to the rules they are copied from"
Agree totally. ^^^^ What he said...Well put Greg.
R
#34
_rorym_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:08 AM
Love it! All good healthy debating with knowledgeable people adding quite a lot of good comments. Thanks ppl.
R
R
#35
_LXChev366_
_LXChev366_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 10:38 AM
Yep its all good.
Now my car isnt a Group C replica and is not even close... but ANYONE can build a car like mine...pick any eligible engine you like (253, 307,308, 304,327,350 and 350 Gen3 etc IPRA rules are much easier) and go racing TODAY.... you dont need to worry about Group C at all... we can even paint our cars in Group C war paint (except Tabacco stuff) and go for it... there is a class of racing out there if they really wanted to...
But dont worry.... I would like to build a Group C car and race it... The only reason my car looks like a SLR5000 road car and not a group C is, the paint work is still very good and I didnt need to change it. But If I dinged it and was repairable I would consider painting it like a Group C.... but I do have one issue... I am in 2 minds as to what colours.... I would like to paint it in an original scheme... not a brocky/gricey etc...
Many people on this site hold the Torana in quite high regard especially the racing cars that were created from the Homologation models of the era, so most would cut there middle finger off to get the opportunity to race an A9X or L34. To ignore the writting on the wall and to continue to deny replica racing is in my opinion short sighted.
Now my car isnt a Group C replica and is not even close... but ANYONE can build a car like mine...pick any eligible engine you like (253, 307,308, 304,327,350 and 350 Gen3 etc IPRA rules are much easier) and go racing TODAY.... you dont need to worry about Group C at all... we can even paint our cars in Group C war paint (except Tabacco stuff) and go for it... there is a class of racing out there if they really wanted to...
But dont worry.... I would like to build a Group C car and race it... The only reason my car looks like a SLR5000 road car and not a group C is, the paint work is still very good and I didnt need to change it. But If I dinged it and was repairable I would consider painting it like a Group C.... but I do have one issue... I am in 2 minds as to what colours.... I would like to paint it in an original scheme... not a brocky/gricey etc...
Edited by LXChev366, 18 January 2007 - 10:41 AM.
#36
_rorym_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 06:56 PM
More fun to be had...the numbers are growing already..We have had 2 Group C cars at the last 3 events I have been at...Speed..Noosa And Wheels...it would be nice to get a trophy for being 3rd..with 3 in the class..but thats not me... it would be a lot better to have 10 cars..all period and equal fighting for the silverware!
R
R
#37
_yellowa9xs_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 07:17 PM
Hi All,
The current Group C should be left to the genuine cars.
The main reason I brought a Group C A9X was to own a car I always wanted and to be able to race against other drivers who had cars of equal significance and value. I'm over running in motor racing where hitting each other is acceptable - the guys who drive these cars aren't idiots, they just race them hard. I also didn't want to do super sprints (do quick laps without racing).
I brought this car to race it, the price they are worth now wont stop me or a lot of the other Group C competitors racing.
I can understand why running replicas in a stand alone series would be appealing, but the cost of running these cars is really high and running replicas is as expensive as running the genuine cars. If a series is made for replicas, the rules would need to be relaxed to allow cheaper contemporary parts to be used - for example a Group C spec 308 putting out 400hp would cost about $15,000 to build - free up the rules and you can do a similar or higher horse power engine which would be more reliable for 1/2 the price. Try buying a genuine A9X diff with a locker centre and 3.36 ratio - money wont be an issue - you just can't buy them. Super T10 gearboxes are as rare as hens teeth and pity the guy who wants to put together a L34 replica - M21 gear box parts are way to fragile and a bonjo coping with 400hp and 11 inch slicks make the gearbox seem strong. Genuine suspension bushes and engine mounts are bloody hard to find. So, do you run replicas that are original spec or do a series for them allow modern parts to be used? If original parts are used, the cost of these parts for the guys running in Group C would go higher.
It would be good to see a series for roughly Group C spec cars. But while the numbers of cars running is increasing leave Group C as it is - With the original cars we love running to the original rules.
The current Group C should be left to the genuine cars.
The main reason I brought a Group C A9X was to own a car I always wanted and to be able to race against other drivers who had cars of equal significance and value. I'm over running in motor racing where hitting each other is acceptable - the guys who drive these cars aren't idiots, they just race them hard. I also didn't want to do super sprints (do quick laps without racing).
I brought this car to race it, the price they are worth now wont stop me or a lot of the other Group C competitors racing.
I can understand why running replicas in a stand alone series would be appealing, but the cost of running these cars is really high and running replicas is as expensive as running the genuine cars. If a series is made for replicas, the rules would need to be relaxed to allow cheaper contemporary parts to be used - for example a Group C spec 308 putting out 400hp would cost about $15,000 to build - free up the rules and you can do a similar or higher horse power engine which would be more reliable for 1/2 the price. Try buying a genuine A9X diff with a locker centre and 3.36 ratio - money wont be an issue - you just can't buy them. Super T10 gearboxes are as rare as hens teeth and pity the guy who wants to put together a L34 replica - M21 gear box parts are way to fragile and a bonjo coping with 400hp and 11 inch slicks make the gearbox seem strong. Genuine suspension bushes and engine mounts are bloody hard to find. So, do you run replicas that are original spec or do a series for them allow modern parts to be used? If original parts are used, the cost of these parts for the guys running in Group C would go higher.
It would be good to see a series for roughly Group C spec cars. But while the numbers of cars running is increasing leave Group C as it is - With the original cars we love running to the original rules.
#38
_LXChev366_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 08:30 PM
Well there ya go.. its like any good court case.. you need to hear ALL the facts before passing judgment ...thanks for that yellowa9xs
all good points...
all good points...
#39
_rorym_
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Posted 18 January 2007 - 09:24 PM
Dont disa gree with Michael....some good points...but reality says the numbers will get less and less as we go on...it stands to reason. They struggle in most states now...hence the Group A fillup.
R
R
Edited by rorym, 18 January 2007 - 09:25 PM.
#40
_HatchmanSS76_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 12:30 PM
Quite few interesting claims that have a lot of merit when it comes to cost reduction and affordability. You left out tyres as well or has the scarcity of supply been fixed now.Hi All,
The current Group C should be left to the genuine cars.
The main reason I brought a Group C A9X was to own a car I always wanted and to be able to race against other drivers who had cars of equal significance and value. I'm over running in motor racing where hitting each other is acceptable - the guys who drive these cars aren't idiots, they just race them hard. I also didn't want to do super sprints (do quick laps without racing).
I brought this car to race it, the price they are worth now wont stop me or a lot of the other Group C competitors racing.
I can understand why running replicas in a stand alone series would be appealing, but the cost of running these cars is really high and running replicas is as expensive as running the genuine cars. If a series is made for replicas, the rules would need to be relaxed to allow cheaper contemporary parts to be used - for example a Group C spec 308 putting out 400hp would cost about $15,000 to build - free up the rules and you can do a similar or higher horse power engine which would be more reliable for 1/2 the price. Try buying a genuine A9X diff with a locker centre and 3.36 ratio - money wont be an issue - you just can't buy them. Super T10 gearboxes are as rare as hens teeth and pity the guy who wants to put together a L34 replica - M21 gear box parts are way to fragile and a bonjo coping with 400hp and 11 inch slicks make the gearbox seem strong. Genuine suspension bushes and engine mounts are bloody hard to find. So, do you run replicas that are original spec or do a series for them allow modern parts to be used? If original parts are used, the cost of these parts for the guys running in Group C would go higher.
It would be good to see a series for roughly Group C spec cars. But while the numbers of cars running is increasing leave Group C as it is - With the original cars we love running to the original rules.
#41
_yellowa9xs_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 02:27 PM
Tyre supply for the A9X is pretty good - I ran a new set of Goodyears at the Muscle Car Masters and after 25 laps of Eastern Creek they are still in great condition.
Avon and Hoosier also do tyres that are the right size. I'm going to try the Hoosiers (they are the cheapest available) at the March race meeting at Phillip Island. I'll try them in Friday's practice sessions and run them back to back with the Goodyears and run which ever are quicker. I'll use the other set of tyres that I don't use at Phillip Island at a less high speed track - probably Simmons Plains in April.
Either way, I'll get 2 to 3 meetings out of each set of tyres, so these 2 sets will last me to the end of the year if I don't ruin a tyre.
The Group C rules give an A9X a 15 inch rim up to 10 inch wide, which is what they ran in the 1970's. My car had a set of Hot Wires on it when I brought it. I wouldn't like to run these 29 year old rims with slicks at the speeds we do - so I'll use these to run my wet tyres on, I got 2 sets of Simmons made to run the slicks on.
Despite all that, it would be a lot cheaper to run a tyre size that is more in line with modern rim sizes, but the current rules are really good as they keep the cars as they where.
What would be good is if all the guys who own a few Group C cars would run one of them at each meeting, but some people are racers and some are collectors. I'm a racer - I couldn't own a car and not drive it hard. Every collectable car I own or have owned has been around a track at least once.
Avon and Hoosier also do tyres that are the right size. I'm going to try the Hoosiers (they are the cheapest available) at the March race meeting at Phillip Island. I'll try them in Friday's practice sessions and run them back to back with the Goodyears and run which ever are quicker. I'll use the other set of tyres that I don't use at Phillip Island at a less high speed track - probably Simmons Plains in April.
Either way, I'll get 2 to 3 meetings out of each set of tyres, so these 2 sets will last me to the end of the year if I don't ruin a tyre.
The Group C rules give an A9X a 15 inch rim up to 10 inch wide, which is what they ran in the 1970's. My car had a set of Hot Wires on it when I brought it. I wouldn't like to run these 29 year old rims with slicks at the speeds we do - so I'll use these to run my wet tyres on, I got 2 sets of Simmons made to run the slicks on.
Despite all that, it would be a lot cheaper to run a tyre size that is more in line with modern rim sizes, but the current rules are really good as they keep the cars as they where.
What would be good is if all the guys who own a few Group C cars would run one of them at each meeting, but some people are racers and some are collectors. I'm a racer - I couldn't own a car and not drive it hard. Every collectable car I own or have owned has been around a track at least once.
#42
_rorym_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 04:39 PM
Michael,
Can you PM or put up here the sizes you are running on the 10" front and rear?..I have hit a bit of wall on these questions. Also would be looking at softer compounds as mine are not continuous laps. Thanks
Rory
Can you PM or put up here the sizes you are running on the 10" front and rear?..I have hit a bit of wall on these questions. Also would be looking at softer compounds as mine are not continuous laps. Thanks
Rory
#43
_HatchmanSS76_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 04:59 PM
I konw tyre technology has change heaps since the tyres that were used way back then. With the tyres that your using now is the basic construction the same or we talking totaly different now. The reason I ask is all the things I've read and the few conversations I've had with some drivers about tyres and car set up of the A9X's, the tyre was vital as they were designed as a part of the cars suspension for optimal performance. Different tyre construction could change that a lot or am I off base on this?
#44
dattoman
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:04 PM
Shame those tyres don't have DOT approval
We can't use them in targa,hillclimbs etc
We can't use them in targa,hillclimbs etc
#45
_yellowa9xs_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:21 PM
The tyres are very similar to the construction they ran back then.
I've heard someone is bringing out a radial slick fairly soon. When that happens we would have to do some suspension work to make the most of it.
As my car is now, it is as close to its 1977 spec as we could get it. Same cam, same head design, same manifold, same carbies, same exhaust, same crank, rods and pistons, same tyre size and construction, same clutch and gearbox, same diff and centre, same brake pad, calipers and rotors, same roll cage, similar spring rates and shocks, same windows. About the only thing that isn't original is the drivers seat and seat belts and that is only because they have to be replaced under CAMS rules. I'm not sure about the fuel tank, but it is foam filled. Also, the sign writing is now stickers and not painted on. Hell, its even still got its original plastic front spoiler - or it will still have the same plastic front spoiler until I miss time a brake mark or I bother to change it!
This spec was good enough to finish 3rd at Bathurst in 1977, so it's good enough for me.
I've heard someone is bringing out a radial slick fairly soon. When that happens we would have to do some suspension work to make the most of it.
As my car is now, it is as close to its 1977 spec as we could get it. Same cam, same head design, same manifold, same carbies, same exhaust, same crank, rods and pistons, same tyre size and construction, same clutch and gearbox, same diff and centre, same brake pad, calipers and rotors, same roll cage, similar spring rates and shocks, same windows. About the only thing that isn't original is the drivers seat and seat belts and that is only because they have to be replaced under CAMS rules. I'm not sure about the fuel tank, but it is foam filled. Also, the sign writing is now stickers and not painted on. Hell, its even still got its original plastic front spoiler - or it will still have the same plastic front spoiler until I miss time a brake mark or I bother to change it!
This spec was good enough to finish 3rd at Bathurst in 1977, so it's good enough for me.
#46
_rorym_
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:26 PM
They use slicks here in Hillclimbs and Sprints, Datto..
R
R
#47
dattoman
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Posted 19 January 2007 - 05:28 PM
Depends on the class your running in I guess
I'm in U2L outright here so I can run slicks
But the street class boys must run a DOT
I plan on running in over 4L street
I'm in U2L outright here so I can run slicks
But the street class boys must run a DOT
I plan on running in over 4L street
#49
_gmp&a_
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Posted 24 January 2007 - 07:12 AM
Sorry mate, I would have to disagree with that Rory. A couple of our cars are off limits on the track, yes the 1979 A9X is very rightfully one of them, but I'm a paid up and proud member of the Group C & A org and can see it gaining momentum. Remember, there are only 11 Bathurst and ATCC winners in the Group C era, most of the remaining 200? or so cars that were log booked are perfect candidates for some clean fun and a good financial return when you're done. As mentioned earlier, these cars are still quite cheap, compared to the european Group C (Sports) cars, Trans Am etc... If you want to get your replica on the track, you can either join Improved Prod. or the QR Top gear days, or better yet, SUPPORT the GroupC and A org, so that it grows and a spin off of it is commercially viable. I can assure you, the idea failing will not send CAMS into a spin trying to replace it with a replica series. Group C&A is already the biggest crowd pleaser at any historic event, and that is with occasionally small grids and a little bit of bumbling. It is very early days for these types of tin tops and we all need to cooperate if it will succeed & when it does, it will be great for all forms of motorsport. Cheers, CB.Eventually CAMS will work out that no one is taking out there G Cs as they are too valuable and allow replicas to play.. The day is nigh.
R
#50
_rorym_
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Posted 24 January 2007 - 08:13 AM
DAMN!! He is still alive!! Lack of sleep hasnt killed him yet!!
Well we will see Chris...I just think that the spiralling prices will make a lot of guys park them and go to Regularity or similiar...opening the door..
On another note..Did Peter Champion buy the Brock 72 XU1?
R
Well we will see Chris...I just think that the spiralling prices will make a lot of guys park them and go to Regularity or similiar...opening the door..
On another note..Did Peter Champion buy the Brock 72 XU1?
R
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