Does anyone know whats involved in putting a second steering uni in an LX?
I had a look and the shaft on the steering rack looks to long in relation to the location of the cotter pin and the end of the shaft.
Steering uni
Started by
_J&S Racing_
, Jan 23 2006 08:08 PM
38 replies to this topic
#2
_ChiaLX_
_ChiaLX_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:42 PM
someone here has definately done this. i remember on the old forum someone saying that you have to cut 10mm off the steering column to make it fit and then regrind the flat bit in order for the cotter pin to fit again .
#3
_Herne_
_Herne_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 January 2006 - 08:56 PM
My car has it although I didnt do it and yes I believe the shaft has to be shortened.
I am thinking maybe Struggler has also done this and if so he would be the guy to take advice from.
Cheers
Herne
I am thinking maybe Struggler has also done this and if so he would be the guy to take advice from.
Cheers
Herne
#4
_J&S Racing_
_J&S Racing_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:07 PM
Thanks guys, Herne does it make any difference to your steering?
#5
_Herne_
_Herne_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:39 PM
Absolutely, more direct and much more feel, ideal conversion for a race setup or for those who like to know where their wheels are when cornering. I am sure you know what I mean. Not for the faint hearted I guess is what I am saying.
Oh one more thing, on the downside you feel every vibration....This would put some off. For me it's a very fair trade.
Cheers
Herne
Oh one more thing, on the downside you feel every vibration....This would put some off. For me it's a very fair trade.
Cheers
Herne
Edited by Herne, 23 January 2006 - 09:42 PM.
#6
_J&S Racing_
_J&S Racing_
-
- Guests
Posted 23 January 2006 - 09:48 PM
Herne,
I know exactly what you mean, thats just what i'm looking for.
Cheers Steve.
I know exactly what you mean, thats just what i'm looking for.
Cheers Steve.
#7
Toranamat69
-
- Members
-
- 2,117 posts
Forum R&D Officer
- Location:Brisbane
- Joined: 07-November 05
Posted 23 January 2006 - 10:43 PM
You don't have to refile the flat bit, just trim the shaft the 10mm shorter and that's it.
M@
M@
#8
_devilsadvocate_
_devilsadvocate_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 01:07 AM
It was discussed quite a bit on the old forum, not going to go into why i dont think its a good idea, but if you are doing it, should check that it is in fact legal and safe to do it.
Perhaps get an opinion/ruling from a mechanical/engineering certifier(whatever you call them) Whether someone has managed to slip one through a rwc inspection or not with it done being irrelevant(in my opinion)
Perhaps get an opinion/ruling from a mechanical/engineering certifier(whatever you call them) Whether someone has managed to slip one through a rwc inspection or not with it done being irrelevant(in my opinion)
#9
_Herne_
_Herne_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 08:23 AM
here we go, mr advocate who knows all about all....
My car is fully engineeered and passed.
Cheers
Herne
My car is fully engineeered and passed.
Cheers
Herne
#10
_devilsadvocate_
_devilsadvocate_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:50 AM
Knows all? well I am certain on a lot of things, but not on the this topic, (i Know my limitations - unlike others......I dont have data to hand on the specific safety factors were built into the original unijoints and shafts and whether that margin would be compromised to standards below what the original engineers deemed acceptable by the removal of the shock absorbing flexible coupling) thats why I suggested a professional ruling/opinion from a qualified/certified engineer.here we go, mr advocate who knows all about all....
My car is fully engineeered and passed.
Cheers
Herne
You have stated that your car was assessed/certified/passed by a an engineer for this mod and it was stated to be okay?
That's all you needed to say.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 24 January 2006 - 09:51 AM.
#11
_Yella SLuR_
_Yella SLuR_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:03 PM
Not an RWC issue, if anything the steel flexible joint would be 10 times stronger than the flexible rubber joint. All the safety items are inside the car with the flexible steering column. It only adds to the perceived drivability of the car. Don't think the average Joe likes any feel through the steering column. Try it, if you don't like it, change it back.
#12
Struggler
-
- Members
-
- 2,426 posts
Forum Fixture
- Name:Andrew or AJ
- Location:Canberra A.C.T.
- Car:UC Sedan
- Joined: 08-November 05
Posted 24 January 2006 - 12:19 PM
I am thinking maybe Struggler has also done this and if so he would be the guy to take advice from.
Why thank you. Yes, I have done it a couple of times. My method is to put the intermediate shaft next to the shaft coming from the rack so you can mark off how much needs to be trimmed. As TM69 said it is about 10mm. I wrap the rack shaft in a wet rag and cut the excess with a grinder and cutting disc. Tidy it up with a sanding disc so it looks good and reassemble. There is no need to refile the flat. The only time I have needed to do this is when making a new intermediate shaft from 9/16" bright rod (LC/J V8 and LX/UC BBC). As it is a steering component then excessive heat is not a great idea, that is why I wrap the shaft in a wet rag.
Definately results in increased road feel ( not necc. better for grandmothers but suited me fine) and a distinct lack of freeplay in the steering. I was quite surprised in the play the canvas coupling creates when parking etc.
Incidentally, in my BBC UC I originally fitted a nolathane coupling at the direction of the engineer. It lasted less than a month before giving up to the heat and failing (luckily whilst at parking speeds when loads were greatest). Even in 253/308 powered cars they are close to the pipes. I could NOT recommend them.
Not an RWC issue, if anything the steel flexible joint would be 10 times stronger than the flexible rubber joint.
This is just the issue. When a LH/X etc is involved in a major front end impact the canvas is designed to tear so the shaft can overlap, avoiding driver kebab type incidents. Yes, the column still collapses but this only gives you a few inches of extra space. When the canvas tears you get and extra foot or so. I never looked at the legality of it but I was aware of the theory.
Consider everything before changing anything.
Edited by Struggler, 24 January 2006 - 12:26 PM.
#13
_devilsadvocate_
_devilsadvocate_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 01:05 PM
Interesting point about the added crumple zone for the steering shaft in a collision struggler, hadnt even thought about it from that point of view at all. Thats one reason why simple "common sense" reasoning such as "steel is stronger than rubber" is a little dangerous. Cant see how the engineers can say its okay to go without it if that's the case.
I was thinking of it more from a point of view of twisting impact. ie car hitting curb/pot hole and (driving naturally resisting the possible turning of the steering wheel sending the car in another direction) as putting a perhaps too large initial force of impact through all components of the steering, the flexible coupling would allow a softening in the size of force experienced right through the steering components, from wheel/stub axle/tie rod/rack/shafts/unijoints
I was thinking of it more from a point of view of twisting impact. ie car hitting curb/pot hole and (driving naturally resisting the possible turning of the steering wheel sending the car in another direction) as putting a perhaps too large initial force of impact through all components of the steering, the flexible coupling would allow a softening in the size of force experienced right through the steering components, from wheel/stub axle/tie rod/rack/shafts/unijoints
#15
_Yella SLuR_
_Yella SLuR_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 01:58 PM
Andrew, I can't see how it can rip and give you an extra foot. It is steel rod facing steel rod, with a slight gap at the flexible link, and the steel pins even if the canvas ripped would surely keep that alignment in an accident.
Must have a look at the outer column I have at home and see exactly how they collapse, I know there's a good foot of netted area. The centre column as a slip joint, but yes, don't look like there's much movement there, unless the collar breaks and the two ends are chamfered.
You got me thinking now, happy to kick it around. Must say never thought about it, I like flexibility.
Realised the other day changing the link that there is also another steel uni up under the brake booster before it re-enters the fire wall, no-man's land on a V8 Torrie. That begs the question can you run a steel rod from uni to uni. If so, I'd at least talk to an engineer re safety so you can size it to fail, or induce it to brake in a certain fashionin an accident, i.e. the cross member being pushed back towards the passenger cabin.
Yes agree with the Nylothane burning, I get about six months out of them, I just do the coupling when I do an oil filter. Have you seen the LH knuckle protectors? They seem to be different to the LX ones that are welded on, LH ones are bolted on to the cross member. I'm trying to look into getting one of these.
Never thought a coupling discussion could be so interesting.
Must have a look at the outer column I have at home and see exactly how they collapse, I know there's a good foot of netted area. The centre column as a slip joint, but yes, don't look like there's much movement there, unless the collar breaks and the two ends are chamfered.
You got me thinking now, happy to kick it around. Must say never thought about it, I like flexibility.
Realised the other day changing the link that there is also another steel uni up under the brake booster before it re-enters the fire wall, no-man's land on a V8 Torrie. That begs the question can you run a steel rod from uni to uni. If so, I'd at least talk to an engineer re safety so you can size it to fail, or induce it to brake in a certain fashionin an accident, i.e. the cross member being pushed back towards the passenger cabin.
Yes agree with the Nylothane burning, I get about six months out of them, I just do the coupling when I do an oil filter. Have you seen the LH knuckle protectors? They seem to be different to the LX ones that are welded on, LH ones are bolted on to the cross member. I'm trying to look into getting one of these.
Never thought a coupling discussion could be so interesting.
Edited by Yella SLuR, 24 January 2006 - 02:00 PM.
#16
_J&S Racing_
_J&S Racing_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 04:18 PM
Thank you very much struggler for that indepth how to do, there has been some interesting points made with the safety side of doing this and now i'm thinking seriously about it before i do it. this one hasn't lasted long but for the mean time i will just put in a new flexible one and maybe some heat shield of some sort.
#17
_Yella SLuR_
_Yella SLuR_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:17 PM
J&S I bought a bag of reflective heat sheild fabric for something like $99.00 from Revolution. I was going to wrap my flexible link and wire it either end, but decided it will look a bit agricultural, hence looking at this LH one if I can find one.
If you want, happy to cut you a piece and send it too you. Way more material than I need, but yeah, prolly not a good look.
If you want, happy to cut you a piece and send it too you. Way more material than I need, but yeah, prolly not a good look.
#18
_J&S Racing_
_J&S Racing_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 05:30 PM
Yella SLuR, thanks for the offer PM sent.
#19
_Flamenco_
_Flamenco_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:34 PM
Yella can you send me a pic of the rubber coupling shield you have (or post it up here). I picked up one from the wreckers the other day for about $2.00 - it may or may not be what you need...
#20
Toranamat69
-
- Members
-
- 2,117 posts
Forum R&D Officer
- Location:Brisbane
- Joined: 07-November 05
Posted 24 January 2006 - 06:57 PM
As I stated on the last forum, I had this mod cleared by my engineer here in QLD - he is the president (or was) of one of the hot rod clubs up here too and he said that is common place for them to use 2 steel uni joints on rods.
The guys with LC V8's all use 2 of these uni's as well. We need someone to do some destructive testing to be really sure where the weak point is but my money is definately on the cotter pins.
I have done about 15,000 k's on mine since changing over including flogging it around wakefield park and (spinning out bigtime over the curb) so I don't think the strength is an issue.
I fail to see how this would put more force on anything 'below' where the original rag joint coupling went - above maybe but not below.
Interrestingly if you read those new proposed laws they want to bring in - there is nothing stating you have to use a rag joint in your steering. They obviusly don;t see this as an issue from a safety point of view in both the current and future proposed laws.
If anyone wants an LX type steering coupling heat shield with HPC coating on it - it is all theirs - it is lying around pissing me off and I would like to see it go to a good home. The coating is in good nick but I have tapped it in, in 2 spots for a bit of extractor clearance.
M@
The guys with LC V8's all use 2 of these uni's as well. We need someone to do some destructive testing to be really sure where the weak point is but my money is definately on the cotter pins.
I have done about 15,000 k's on mine since changing over including flogging it around wakefield park and (spinning out bigtime over the curb) so I don't think the strength is an issue.
I fail to see how this would put more force on anything 'below' where the original rag joint coupling went - above maybe but not below.
Interrestingly if you read those new proposed laws they want to bring in - there is nothing stating you have to use a rag joint in your steering. They obviusly don;t see this as an issue from a safety point of view in both the current and future proposed laws.
If anyone wants an LX type steering coupling heat shield with HPC coating on it - it is all theirs - it is lying around pissing me off and I would like to see it go to a good home. The coating is in good nick but I have tapped it in, in 2 spots for a bit of extractor clearance.
M@
#21
_devilsadvocate_
_devilsadvocate_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 09:02 PM
It doesnt really matter if someone is pulling hard on the steering wheel or if the road wheel is pushing hard on the steering components, if the motion of the wheel is resisted at the other end then you put force on all the components in the steering chain. If that force is sharp and sudden, like hitting a curb, and the person on the end of the wheel holds on to it with a vice like grip(to stop it veering off in another direction) then that large force is transmitted along every component in the steering chain. The size of this force is very large if the impulse is applied quickly, the coupling gives some time for this transfer and reduces the force needed to oppose the intial shock or impulse, the force on all components in the chain is reduced.I fail to see how this would put more force on anything 'below' where the original rag joint coupling went - above maybe but not below.
Perhaps think of it this way, if you wanted to break the gears in the steering rack, you could get a few people to hit the road wheel with a sledge hammer, while the shaft coming out of the rack is bolted solid to the subframe so it couldnt move. Perhaps the rack would break, or tie rod or shaft. If the shaft was attached to the flexible coupling and then bolted to the subframe, there would be movement(shock absorption)-making it harder to break anything.
Edited by devilsadvocate, 24 January 2006 - 09:03 PM.
#22
_Yella SLuR_
_Yella SLuR_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 10:12 PM
Flamenco, basically the top bit is the same as the LX/UC for the coupling sheild, however according to the parts book, the LH has a bottom part that looks like the reverse of the screw on top bit, and has two self tappers into the cross-member, i.e. it is round. On the LX and UC it is welded to the cross-member.
I discovered this by trying to fit the one that Makka bought up with him, but couldn't see what it fixed to. I pulled up the bonnet on the race hack and took the cover off that one, and found that the LH didn't have the welded bottom bit. I then looked at the LH manual and saw that it is different. My LH cross member also has the two holes for the screws, so it must of had one at one stage.
I will find one, as it shouldn't be too hard to find, seems most people rip them off, and I can see why, would make changing the flexible link difficult.
I discovered this by trying to fit the one that Makka bought up with him, but couldn't see what it fixed to. I pulled up the bonnet on the race hack and took the cover off that one, and found that the LH didn't have the welded bottom bit. I then looked at the LH manual and saw that it is different. My LH cross member also has the two holes for the screws, so it must of had one at one stage.
I will find one, as it shouldn't be too hard to find, seems most people rip them off, and I can see why, would make changing the flexible link difficult.
#23
_Flamenco_
_Flamenco_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 10:55 PM
The one I have has 3 tabs - one on the side and two at one end... Is it the one you need?
#24
_Yella SLuR_
_Yella SLuR_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:29 PM
Yes I have that bit (Makka bought it up with him), which is the same on the LH, just the bottom bit that it screw into is different according to the book. It's the bottom bit that that screws into that I'm searching for.
#25
_Flamenco_
_Flamenco_
-
- Guests
Posted 24 January 2006 - 11:34 PM
Just thought I'd check anyway, Happy searching!
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users
