mmmmm i am sensing a few drama's when i put my 40mm triple dellorto's, what size are you guys running?
my motor is 202+30, 391 bathurst xu-1 cam, bathurst 6000 yt head, roller rockers, powerbond race balancer, lightend flywheel pulled 160HP+ at the rear tyres on the dyno at richmond carbys ( with triple 1.75 strommy's)
Webers On Again Off Again
Started by
_dandapalm_
, Feb 27 2008 11:53 AM
58 replies to this topic
#27
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 27 February 2008 - 09:05 PM
Mine are 45mm.
You'll only have dramas if they're not set up properly.
You'll only have dramas if they're not set up properly.
Edited by CraigA, 27 February 2008 - 09:09 PM.
#28
originalglenn
-
- Members
-
- 594 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:near bega nsw
- Joined: 07-November 05
Posted 27 February 2008 - 09:19 PM
some interesting reading/pics of spark plugs
http://www.4secondsf...ug_reading.html
http://www.dansmc.co..._catalog.html#1
as for 3 piece verses one piece manifold it souldnt make any difference unless there is some sort of balance tube between the manifold runners
as for manifold gasket my local exhaust shop supplied a graphite impregnated ( no idea brand )which seems to be fine, if your having trouble with not sealing run a staight edge across your manifolds and also check the head hasnt pitted or something( mine had that face machined with the last rebuild)
http://www.4secondsf...ug_reading.html
http://www.dansmc.co..._catalog.html#1
as for 3 piece verses one piece manifold it souldnt make any difference unless there is some sort of balance tube between the manifold runners
as for manifold gasket my local exhaust shop supplied a graphite impregnated ( no idea brand )which seems to be fine, if your having trouble with not sealing run a staight edge across your manifolds and also check the head hasnt pitted or something( mine had that face machined with the last rebuild)
Edited by originalglenn, 27 February 2008 - 09:20 PM.
#29
_dandapalm_
_dandapalm_
-
- Guests
Posted 28 February 2008 - 08:28 AM
Milco, I currently have both 45's and 40's and depending on final chokes used it wasnt a huge difference between them, I tried to schools, the 45mm with 36mm chokes and a variety of different jetting options.
And I also tried the 40mm's with 32's and a LOT of very fine set up work done with this set of webers.
I must admit the 40mm's had the edge over a lot of my daily driving requirements, but just didnt quite get that over the top ridiculous sound way up high in excess of 5,500 to 6,500 rpm.
This motor is very strong and despite camshaft and headwork, it is running out of power at 6,000, so I always try and be realistic about what my max rpm is.
I am now waiting for the posts to say that ppl rev their holden 6 to 8,000 rpm and it is strong right the way to the line. Sure, my engine could easily rev to 8,000....counterweight crank, fully balanced, starfire rods with ARP's fitted and a modified blue head with solid cam and 7/16 bolt on( with head modified to accept) race style YT roller rockers BUT.........it is really very strong at 6,000rpm and I dont like hammering it to beyond 7,000 for something to do.
But I put the 45mm on and if I was ever touring or driving a lot of distance, I would happily put the 40mm back on.
Thats my thoughts anyway Milco.
Glen, very interesting stuff on sparkplugs mate, thanks mate.
Cheers
And I also tried the 40mm's with 32's and a LOT of very fine set up work done with this set of webers.
I must admit the 40mm's had the edge over a lot of my daily driving requirements, but just didnt quite get that over the top ridiculous sound way up high in excess of 5,500 to 6,500 rpm.
This motor is very strong and despite camshaft and headwork, it is running out of power at 6,000, so I always try and be realistic about what my max rpm is.
I am now waiting for the posts to say that ppl rev their holden 6 to 8,000 rpm and it is strong right the way to the line. Sure, my engine could easily rev to 8,000....counterweight crank, fully balanced, starfire rods with ARP's fitted and a modified blue head with solid cam and 7/16 bolt on( with head modified to accept) race style YT roller rockers BUT.........it is really very strong at 6,000rpm and I dont like hammering it to beyond 7,000 for something to do.
But I put the 45mm on and if I was ever touring or driving a lot of distance, I would happily put the 40mm back on.
Thats my thoughts anyway Milco.
Glen, very interesting stuff on sparkplugs mate, thanks mate.
Cheers
#30
MustardGTR
-
- Members
-
- 239 posts
Forum Member
- Location:Western Australia
- Car:72 GTR, 73 GTR
- Joined: 16-March 07
Posted 28 February 2008 - 09:55 PM
Dandapalm, I have read this post with interest as I have had both 40's & 45's Webers on 202's. With the 40's my experience is similar to your�s - they were unbeatable for drivability but ran out of puff around 6000-6500rpm (also lacked the Weber induction roar).
Having said that I�m currently putting together a motor (similar spec to yours) but this time I have bought a set of 42DCOE8�s (36 chokes). Interestingly I have heard more than once, that in an all round sense, 42�s are possibly the best choice for Holden sixes (explained further below). Unfortunately they are few and far between.
The other point of interest is the �hesitation� or �dip� you described. I haven�t experience this but the comparison between 45�s behaving like this, may come down to �tipos�. (45DCOE18, where the �18� is the �tipo�). Unfortunately 45� s are not 45�s and depending on the �tipo� Webers have different progressions drilled into the body (come into action when the throttle is slightly opened) something which can�t be altered easily(?). So tuning rich may address the symptoms but not the cause.
Just my take, but more than happy to be corrected.
Would be interesting to know 45�s work well - 45DCOE 8, 9, 13, 15/16, 18��..
Having said that I�m currently putting together a motor (similar spec to yours) but this time I have bought a set of 42DCOE8�s (36 chokes). Interestingly I have heard more than once, that in an all round sense, 42�s are possibly the best choice for Holden sixes (explained further below). Unfortunately they are few and far between.
The other point of interest is the �hesitation� or �dip� you described. I haven�t experience this but the comparison between 45�s behaving like this, may come down to �tipos�. (45DCOE18, where the �18� is the �tipo�). Unfortunately 45� s are not 45�s and depending on the �tipo� Webers have different progressions drilled into the body (come into action when the throttle is slightly opened) something which can�t be altered easily(?). So tuning rich may address the symptoms but not the cause.
Just my take, but more than happy to be corrected.
Would be interesting to know 45�s work well - 45DCOE 8, 9, 13, 15/16, 18��..
#31
_dandapalm_
_dandapalm_
-
- Guests
Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:22 AM
Yes, well that is right, the progression holes etc are very different. The carbs in the pics were at one stage ( prior to last acid bathed ) mega polished by a guru who proceeded to rub off the small plate on top with the numbers , but did leave the serial numbers 2881 . The rebuilder restamped them DCOE 45 for me at last set up , and he confirmed what they were.From memory they are TIPO 13's and I will check this. They are made in italy, i do know that and many people say the spanish ones etc are this, the italian ones are that, but this is what I have and I will find out the jetting/chokes etc for you as I have had no real knowledge of the later 152 type ones
Cheers
Cheers
#32
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 03 March 2008 - 08:29 PM
Here's some pics, firstly of my battery tray which allows plenty of room for Weber installation in approximately the original spot. Uses a repro 'XU1' battery tray rotated 90 degrees. Battery is a 220CCA unit and copes well with the high torque starter and high compression. As you can HEAPS of room, and IMHO a better solution than a boot mount system.
And here is a picture of No1 plug, car was driven for around 20km's, given a good flogging, then driven back home in light traffic. The plug was removed and then this picture was taken - in other words not cleaned in any way. All plugs run like this.
From what I can read/gather the car is lean at wide open throttle but rich at idle. Timing looks to be OK, using the same guide.
Weber's are TIPO DCOE45 150/5B
And here is a picture of No1 plug, car was driven for around 20km's, given a good flogging, then driven back home in light traffic. The plug was removed and then this picture was taken - in other words not cleaned in any way. All plugs run like this.
From what I can read/gather the car is lean at wide open throttle but rich at idle. Timing looks to be OK, using the same guide.
Weber's are TIPO DCOE45 150/5B
Edited by CraigA, 03 March 2008 - 08:31 PM.
#33
originalglenn
-
- Members
-
- 594 posts
Forum Fixture
- Location:near bega nsw
- Joined: 07-November 05
Posted 03 March 2008 - 10:56 PM
what sort of plugs are they?
#34
_LoneOranger_
_LoneOranger_
-
- Guests
Posted 03 March 2008 - 11:49 PM
I too have been watching this thread with interest.
Mustard GTR is correct about the Weber Tipo numbers.
The ideal carbs for the Holden is probably the 9 or 13.
The accellerator pump has a bleed or by-pass to the fuel bowl.
If it's too large you will have a lag under accelleration, but much better fuel economy.
Larger Accellerator pump jets will overcome this problem.
Also depends on the size of chokes.
36mm is definitely more responsive than 38s or 40s.
I'm currently using the newer 45DCOE 152s
I'm also using the seperate 3 piece Cain manifold.
I'm still running the PCV and no vacuum balance between the intake ramps.
Like Craigs, Mine has no hesitation.
It has the usual bottom end build, XU1 spec cam, and running a modded to 12port red head.
Will rev to 6500 happily, idles at 850 to 900 and is OK to drive in Sydneys morning peak hour traffic with no real issues.
Diff is a 3.55 LSD.
The variations to these carbies is endless, so these sort of conversations come up all the time.
Purple LC on this Forum has great experience on these carbs.
Pics of my set up attached.
Thanks, John.
Mustard GTR is correct about the Weber Tipo numbers.
The ideal carbs for the Holden is probably the 9 or 13.
The accellerator pump has a bleed or by-pass to the fuel bowl.
If it's too large you will have a lag under accelleration, but much better fuel economy.
Larger Accellerator pump jets will overcome this problem.
Also depends on the size of chokes.
36mm is definitely more responsive than 38s or 40s.
I'm currently using the newer 45DCOE 152s
I'm also using the seperate 3 piece Cain manifold.
I'm still running the PCV and no vacuum balance between the intake ramps.
Like Craigs, Mine has no hesitation.
It has the usual bottom end build, XU1 spec cam, and running a modded to 12port red head.
Will rev to 6500 happily, idles at 850 to 900 and is OK to drive in Sydneys morning peak hour traffic with no real issues.
Diff is a 3.55 LSD.
The variations to these carbies is endless, so these sort of conversations come up all the time.
Purple LC on this Forum has great experience on these carbs.
Pics of my set up attached.
Thanks, John.
#35
RIM-010
View Garage
-
- Members
-
- 8,076 posts
DON'T PANIC
- Name:Tim
- Location:Cowell, SA
- Car:LJ 2 Door - HQ Premier
- Joined: 01-March 06
View Garage
Posted 04 March 2008 - 07:16 AM
A little off topic, but I always assumed that with a username like LoneOranger, your car would be orange...
Tim
Tim
#36
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 04 March 2008 - 08:09 AM
Thanks for the pictures John. We've met before but I've never had the chance to see your car. 
I'm still astounded that you drive that in city traffic every day!!
Interesting you're not using the balance tubes between manifold runners. Mine uses these tubes and connects brake and PCV vacuum pick-ups in the same way EXCEPT my PCV valve would 'bounce' at idle, makking an awful racket. I stopped it by fitting a small vacuum tank in series with the manifold to PCV hose.
Your accellorator cable is also of interest to me - are you using one of those bottom mount linkage kits on the Webers? Could you post a picture of this area?
And another question, what clutch do you use? Must be tough if it can handle Sydney traffic!!!
originalglenn, I'll supply plug numbers tonight, but they are just off the shelf at Supercheap and whatever heat range is recommended for XU1.
I'm still astounded that you drive that in city traffic every day!!
Interesting you're not using the balance tubes between manifold runners. Mine uses these tubes and connects brake and PCV vacuum pick-ups in the same way EXCEPT my PCV valve would 'bounce' at idle, makking an awful racket. I stopped it by fitting a small vacuum tank in series with the manifold to PCV hose.
Your accellorator cable is also of interest to me - are you using one of those bottom mount linkage kits on the Webers? Could you post a picture of this area?
And another question, what clutch do you use? Must be tough if it can handle Sydney traffic!!!
originalglenn, I'll supply plug numbers tonight, but they are just off the shelf at Supercheap and whatever heat range is recommended for XU1.
Edited by CraigA, 04 March 2008 - 08:10 AM.
#37
_LoneOranger_
_LoneOranger_
-
- Guests
Posted 04 March 2008 - 08:20 AM
Hi Tim,
My first car ever was an LC LoneOranger GTR.
If I had the funds I would have been down like a shot to
have bought Glenns LoneOranger XU1.
But I'm sure it has gone to a good home.
I mean we all love these cars.
Craig,
I use the inner cable as fixed and the outer cable moves.
I find this gives me a long and more progressive pedal.
Linkages are redline from Hardimans.
I will take some pics for you.
John
PS I have just come back from driving across to Redfern from Balmain
over the Anzac Bridge.
My first car ever was an LC LoneOranger GTR.
If I had the funds I would have been down like a shot to
have bought Glenns LoneOranger XU1.
But I'm sure it has gone to a good home.
I mean we all love these cars.
Craig,
I use the inner cable as fixed and the outer cable moves.
I find this gives me a long and more progressive pedal.
Linkages are redline from Hardimans.
I will take some pics for you.
John
PS I have just come back from driving across to Redfern from Balmain
over the Anzac Bridge.
#38
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 04 March 2008 - 08:30 AM
Ok, I see how your set up works now. Thanks for the explanation.
I just came over the Harbour Bridge into the city in a very comfortable new automatic SP-23 and it gave me the sh*ts - to drive in that traffic in my XU1 would have been very uncomfortable and hard work. And the clutch would have got very upset.
One of my favourite bits though is when the noise and rich exhaust smell makes everyone wind their windows up.
You can pick the true car guys - they are the ones that wind their windows down.
PS I have just come back from driving across to Redfern from Balmain
over the Anzac Bridge.
I just came over the Harbour Bridge into the city in a very comfortable new automatic SP-23 and it gave me the sh*ts - to drive in that traffic in my XU1 would have been very uncomfortable and hard work. And the clutch would have got very upset.
One of my favourite bits though is when the noise and rich exhaust smell makes everyone wind their windows up.
You can pick the true car guys - they are the ones that wind their windows down.
#39
RIM-010
View Garage
-
- Members
-
- 8,076 posts
DON'T PANIC
- Name:Tim
- Location:Cowell, SA
- Car:LJ 2 Door - HQ Premier
- Joined: 01-March 06
View Garage
Posted 04 March 2008 - 09:30 AM
You can pick the true car guys - they are the ones that wind their windows down.
Truer words have never been spoken... err, typed.
Tim
#40
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 04 March 2008 - 09:14 PM
originalglenn, NGK BP6ES plugs with 1.0mm gap. Using GT-40R coil and Bosch 8mm plug leads.
As per NGK website:
1969 - 1974 Holden Torana LC XU1 6 Cyl.
Spark Plug Part No. Plug Gap
Recommended Plug BP6ES 0.8
Plugs shown were fitted in early December last year prior to the Nostalgia drags, hasn't been out of the car since until removed for the photo. About 1000 miles of mixed driving.
This is No1 (bottom of pic) and No2 (top of pic).
As per NGK website:
1969 - 1974 Holden Torana LC XU1 6 Cyl.
Spark Plug Part No. Plug Gap
Recommended Plug BP6ES 0.8
Plugs shown were fitted in early December last year prior to the Nostalgia drags, hasn't been out of the car since until removed for the photo. About 1000 miles of mixed driving.
This is No1 (bottom of pic) and No2 (top of pic).
Edited by CraigA, 04 March 2008 - 09:15 PM.
#41
_LoneOranger_
_LoneOranger_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:03 AM
And how many times do you get people speed up next to you,
Give you the and slowly pull away.
John.
I'll get those pics for you soon Craig, If you still want them.
John.
Give you the
and slowly pull away.John.
I'll get those pics for you soon Craig, If you still want them.
John.
#42
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 March 2008 - 08:26 AM
Still interested in the pics John, really want to change over to centre pull accelerator rather than relying on the end carby connection.
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
Edited by CraigA, 05 March 2008 - 08:27 AM.
#43
_dandapalm_
_dandapalm_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:25 PM
Craig, I am with you mate..........that cable set up is pretty damn interesting.
I have had about 4 or 5 goes and If we can come up with something that works really well, I will cut out and supply and bits we can mass produce at work on the mill and plasma.
Ya never stop learning with an LJ accel cable .........
Cheers
I have had about 4 or 5 goes and If we can come up with something that works really well, I will cut out and supply and bits we can mass produce at work on the mill and plasma.
Ya never stop learning with an LJ accel cable .........
Cheers
#44
_LoneOranger_
_LoneOranger_
-
- Guests
Posted 05 March 2008 - 04:56 PM
OK boys,
Before you have a look at the pictures of my set up and start ROTFLYAO,
Let me explain.
When I bought the car, the old engine had a 350 Holley with cable set up.
I modified and used the old cable just to get the length of the pull rod right.
Because it's working well, I have left it for now.
I will eventually change the flat plate with the cable passing through it
for a longer version of the links for the adjustable rods on the linkages,
and use it with a slip joint having the cable passing through it.
The inner cable is then secured so the outer can slide along it.
This will provide a much straighter pull than the set up I currently have.
The advantage is, as you can see, there are no mounting brackets to worry about. Simple.
If the way i've explained it is too confusing, PM me and I'll give you my phone number.
Craig, We can catch up if you like.
One other thing, I have made brackets that follow the contour of the carbies around the ram tubes.
I have my return springs attached to these and thay also hold the carbies together,
if you need to remove the manifold, or carbs from the manifold.
Going out now, will be back after 10pm
John.
Before you have a look at the pictures of my set up and start ROTFLYAO,
Let me explain.
When I bought the car, the old engine had a 350 Holley with cable set up.
I modified and used the old cable just to get the length of the pull rod right.
Because it's working well, I have left it for now.
I will eventually change the flat plate with the cable passing through it
for a longer version of the links for the adjustable rods on the linkages,
and use it with a slip joint having the cable passing through it.
The inner cable is then secured so the outer can slide along it.
This will provide a much straighter pull than the set up I currently have.
The advantage is, as you can see, there are no mounting brackets to worry about. Simple.
If the way i've explained it is too confusing, PM me and I'll give you my phone number.
Craig, We can catch up if you like.
One other thing, I have made brackets that follow the contour of the carbies around the ram tubes.
I have my return springs attached to these and thay also hold the carbies together,
if you need to remove the manifold, or carbs from the manifold.
Going out now, will be back after 10pm
John.
#45
_xu1six_
_xu1six_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 March 2008 - 08:44 AM
Hi guys i have a setup almost the same on my lj but it runs very rich on the idle circuit , I am running 45f8 idle,135 main ,195 air with f2 emulsion tubes just wondering what u guys are running
#46
retired308
-
- Members
-
- 187 posts
Forum Member
- Location:tasmania
- Joined: 03-February 06
Posted 06 March 2008 - 09:55 AM
anyone see the ebay chrysler site saying not to use soft mounts on holden 6 with triple webers, is this correct or are they only used for 4 cylinder conversions.
#47
_CraigA_
_CraigA_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 March 2008 - 11:18 AM
I use soft mounts, and I thought they were designed to remove/minimise disturbance to the fuel bowl from engine vibration.
You would think that this would be the same no matter how many cylinders the engine had???
You would think that this would be the same no matter how many cylinders the engine had???
Edited by CraigA, 06 March 2008 - 11:19 AM.
#48
_LoneOranger_
_LoneOranger_
-
- Guests
Posted 06 March 2008 - 07:49 PM
iI know the Chargers did not run the soft mount
as a directive from Weber themselves.
I don't recall the reason.
I had a couple of 6 cylender cars years ago without softmount, but that was in the early 70s when funds were less readily available.
xu1six,
Those idle jet sizes should be OK.
Do you know the size of your chokes?
Maybe your idle air speed is very low.
I would also check to make sure no one has previously drilled them out.
Are your carbs 45s or another size?
John.
as a directive from Weber themselves.
I don't recall the reason.
I had a couple of 6 cylender cars years ago without softmount, but that was in the early 70s when funds were less readily available.
xu1six,
Those idle jet sizes should be OK.
Do you know the size of your chokes?
Maybe your idle air speed is very low.
I would also check to make sure no one has previously drilled them out.
Are your carbs 45s or another size?
John.
#49
_dandapalm_
_dandapalm_
-
- Guests
Posted 07 March 2008 - 02:55 PM
xu1 six, when you say they are rich, is that even with air mixture screws at full lean all the way in??
If you dont mess with them, dont start, but the air mixture screws are pretty easy to adjust . And as stated, dont assume anything on webers as so many parts can be machined out etc.
I am still coming to terms with great accel set up in pics LONE ORANGER !!! Pretty amazing.
Cheers
If you dont mess with them, dont start, but the air mixture screws are pretty easy to adjust . And as stated, dont assume anything on webers as so many parts can be machined out etc.
I am still coming to terms with great accel set up in pics LONE ORANGER !!! Pretty amazing.
Cheers
#50
_xu1six_
_xu1six_
-
- Guests
Posted 10 March 2008 - 04:17 PM
Thanks for the reply guys the chokes are 36s and yes they are 45s on tk3130 manifolds the 45f8s are new and even with screws right in it still seams rich you can,t really get the engine note to change when turning mixture screws.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
