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Fuel Injection On A 186

Started by _kenno_ , Mar 20 2006 11:37 AM

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#1 _kenno_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:37 AM

I have a 186S with yella terra rockers, solid lifters, a solid heatseaker stage 4 cam and a straight cut timing gear and at the moment 1 350 holley on it.

I was looking to get something that would go a bit harder and not compramise my economy too much!

I was speaking to a mate and he was saying that if i put a blue yella terra head on there instead of my red one that it would be done. Is it true that you cant with the red head?

How hard would it be to setup fuel injection and can anyone give me any idea of how much it would cost to convert it and the power and economy difference.

Thanks :)

#2 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:42 PM

New 12 port YT heads are available for $1100. They outflow the VK EFI head. If you want EFI, prices start at $3K for manifold, injectors computer etc. That's a new price from a place in Mitcham. Second hand would be cheaper, if you can find it.

#3 lakeside

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 08:08 PM

I was looking to get something that would go a bit harder and not compramise my economy too much!

how hard are you going? Put a 202 in it, that will help

#4 _draglc_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:01 PM

$3k chopper? u can usually pick up second hand kits, with manifold, injectors, computer etc for about $350.

A1

#5 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:21 PM

$2200 for Weber style manifold and injectors. You then need a brain ( obviously excludes females ) and get it tuned. It adds up quickly for new stuff.

#6 surfmaster

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:33 PM

$2200 for Weber style manifold and injectors. You then need a brain ( obviously excludes females ) and get it tuned. It adds up quickly for new stuff.

Crikey, thats a bold post :huh:

#7 _CHOPPER_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 09:39 PM

I'm single, so there's no girlfriend/fiancee/wife to upset. I'll be fine.

#8 _Hotrodder_

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:55 PM

if youre on a real tight budget it can still be done.
use a throttle body injection unit from a late 80s chev. They are a 2 barrell setup with the injectors in the side. Should get one for around $60-80.
Bolt it with a suitable adapter plate straight onto the holley manifold.
Use an 808 computer - around $20-30 (AC Delco ECU from VN-VP, camira, daewoo, pulsar etc - the last 3 digits of the part number end in 808) and have it reprogrammed for your engine using Kalmaker software - around $300 but not always nessecary as it will learn all by itself what the engine requires, you'll just need to take it easy for the first 1000ks or so til it learns everything.
The sensors can be picked up from a wrecking yard for around $100-150.
Make sure you get the wiring with the sensors etc.
Allup cost well under $1000, running and on the road.
Thats assuming you can do the wiring etc yourself.

For the critics Ive done it, and about to do it again, this time on a blown 308, also for under $1000.
One of the best books on this subject is called "Electronic Engine Management Reference manual" by Choco Munday.
Avail here http://www.graffitipub.com.au/graffiti'sbooks.html
While youre there take a look around, you may well find a whole lot of other books of interest too. Like the Essential Holden V8 reference manual.

#9 _Baronvonrort_

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 01:05 AM

I put triple weber style throttle bodies on my 265 Hemi that was in my UC Hatch.

If i had to do a 186/202 there are only 2 ways that i would consider.

1.
Pick up a manifold from a VK efi 202 second hand and bolt that to a 12 port head preferably alloy from YT.
This manifold will give heaps more bottom end, about 70ft/lb more torque than the holley manifold at around 3300rpm and about 15hp more at 5500rpm.
The injection manifolds allow much better airflow and thats where the majority of the gains come from over the standard/holley type manifolds.
This manifold has the injectors placed near the inlet valve and squirt fuel almost directly onto the inlet valve so it will get better economy as you are not wetting the manifold walls with fuel.

2.
Triple weber style injection which will cost considerably more and will give much better peak power readings mostly from allowing far more air into the motor.
The injectors are placed further away from the intake valve which is common on race type setups for better atomisation of the fuel.
This also gives you the option of making your own variable length ram tubes,so you can have longer for lower rpm and shorter for higher rpms which can be controlled electronically from a Haltech ecu.

The ECU that i would choose would be Motec if cost is no problem and Haltech if you are on a tighter budget,Autronic is another good one.They require a laptop to program and i prefer these ECU for their many options.

Most of the Delco ecu's are batch fire,up to the VS? which means all the injectors are fired at the same time.
I prefer sequential injection where each injector is fired in relation to the intake valve opening and this also has individual cylinder trim so you can lean/richen an individual cylinder if required to get every cylinder burning to optimum.

You can also run direct fire ignition which means you can piss the points dizzy off and throw your dwell meter away and run 1 coil per plug with fully programable ignition timing with correction tables for air and coolant temp.The gains from ignition mapping are spectacular for drivability.It also has individual trim for advance/retard on all cylinders.


The Haltech has other options like triggering NOS if certain parameters are met like minimum throttle position and load,engine temp,between what rpm ranges and also how many degrees to retard timing when on NOS.There are many other programmable options with haltech and it really is not that much more difficult to wire up than a good stereo and it has its own diagnostics and data logging.

This will be my last post in this forum....too much BS and cheapskate attitudes!

#10 J-Rod

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 11:33 AM

Its refreshing to see people post different ideas on how to go EFI rather than just the old "go buy a wrecked VK".
Personally i'm using a 12 port head, VK manifold VN V6 throttle body and sensors & Chev V6 Direct Fire Ignition with a delco 808 running the show

#11 gtrboyy

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 02:31 PM

I saw a vk efi car that was running a std vn delco,what do you have to do to the distributer to make it run?

#12 makka

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 03:09 PM

I have also seen a VK efi manifold modified so that it runs twin throttle bodies

#13 J-Rod

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 03:12 PM

I saw a vk efi car that was running a std vn delco,what do you have to do to the distributer to make it run?

you use an electronic dissy, lock up all advance and use a camira ignition module to run it

have a read of this

#14 _Hotrodder_

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 03:50 PM

This will be my last post in this forum....too much BS and cheapskate attitudes!

What you posted is very true, but for someone on a limited budget its out of the question, and what better way to learn all about EFI than a true DYI setup.
As for the "cheapskate attitude" comment, that could only come from someone who can afford what they want, and I dont fall into that category so Ive learned to use what I can afford and dont mind passing the info onto others that are in the same situation.
If youre going to race the car and have the fun coupons avail I would also recommend the same as you have, but for a daily driver why spend all the $$ for little advantage on the street.
Of course if you want to go the whole hog put in the MOTEC digital datalogging dash with telemetry. Now THAT would be nice.

#15 LXdamo

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 04:56 PM

I had a fairly cheap set up in my LJ.
Had a 2 barrel holley pro-jection set up.
according to the instructions it will flow 670cfm at 1.5"manifold vacuum.
Bolted straight to my four barrel inlet manifold.
Controlled two throttle body injectors with a fuel controller that was made by MSD
Hooked up to a chev HEI dizzy.
HAd a few hiccups setting it up and tuning(Too tight to put it on a dyno)
But it was on my daily driver and with tuning it went a shite load better than 465
Holley that was on there.
Could even smoke out the street with black fuel smoke if i wanted.
It was mostly tuned for economy though and went well
Damo

#16 _kenno_

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 06:42 PM

How does EFI off of a VK compare to a a 350 holley in regards to power and economy?

#17 FastEHHolden

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 08:24 PM

I wouldn't be far wrong if I said...it shits all over it.

#18 LX2DR

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:07 PM

The EH Limo that was at the Rare-Spares night was running injection, looked great.
If you want look here.
http://www.fastlane....bay-eh-limo.jpg

#19 _kenno_

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:16 PM

Would everything out of a standard head fir into an injected head or not?

#20 LX2DR

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 11:36 PM

This will be my last post in this forum....too much BS and cheapskate attitudes!

Wife, 3 kids & 100k mortgage.
On your way take your silver spoon with you!
I and i'm sure a lot of people are in the same boat.
Cheaper alternatives may be the only way someone can afford to go.
Info from members giving cheaper alternatives is a welcome thing for me.
It will also give what is wanted, better performance with economy.

#21 _JBird_

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 12:55 AM

Efi conversions for a 186 would be the same as a 202 yes?
What kind of wiring would be involed, what kind of tradesman would be able to do it?

#22 _Sammy_

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 12:28 PM

have a look at this link

http://www.oldholden...rsion/index.php

once you've read through it let us know if you have anymore questions :)

this should cover head changes, wiring, and fitting ...

#23 _kenno_

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:10 PM

wow!! thats a pretty comprehensive site!

Cheers :)

#24 _Sammy_

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:02 AM

thanks, it took me quite a while to compile!!

#25 _Keithy's_UC_

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:28 AM

Fuel injection is the ultimate for fuel economy, smooth idle and the way to rid yourself of having to tune your car up every month... You can never have 'too much' carburation with fuel injection, nor do you have to worry whether your car is running lean or rich - the computer does all that!! Plus you can bolt fuel injection to a standard motor with a slight camshaft upgrade to suit! BUT... When it comes to power, when it comes to the old Tim Allen "Ugh Ugh Ugh" grunt, when you lift off the bonnet to show your mates what powers the beast - you cant go past carby!

Lets not rule out the 350 Holley so soon - i'm running one on my motor (179HP bored to 186), and im making more power with it than people who have worked fuel injected 202's (101.3rwkW max @ 5800rpm)... And im sure that the upgrade to a 465 Holley would give more power yet again! And when i decide to fit the triple SU's, well... I rekon i'd see a decent gain! The real downside to carbys are mentioned above... 1. Fuel usage is not as good as fuel injected motor... 2. Slightly rougher idle (but ya cant go past it for lumpy idle - ugh ugh ugh grunt grunt grunt)!! 3. They require more attention

Its a personal choice - and i'm not taking the cake from anyone who has fuel injection or wants fuel injection, but i believe that a good dyno tune and a well built motor with a nice carby on top is the greatest combination for a holden six cylinder.

A great lumpy holden six gets just as many looks as a V8 holden! I love it!!

Keith
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