I've heard a bit lately about grout filled blocks.
Apparently, for street engines it's common to fill the block up to the bottom water pump bolt level.
I understand the block strengthening theory, but does this do good or bad things to the cooling capacity?
Sounds like a silly question, I know, but I've been reading a couple articles that refer to this mod as a cooling system "upgrade".
Sorry if this has been covered before, I'm too tired/lazy to search tonight.
Grout (half) filled blocks
Started by
_Squarepants_
, Jun 01 2009 10:11 PM
39 replies to this topic
#2
_Squarepants_
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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:04 PM
Ok, I did a search, and my question still stands...
What effect does grout filling a block up to the bottom water pump bolts/welsh plugs have on the cooling system?
What effect does grout filling a block up to the bottom water pump bolts/welsh plugs have on the cooling system?
#3
_Allports_
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:49 PM
Lol it makes it smaller.Ok, I did a search, and my question still stands...
What effect does grout filling a block up to the bottom water pump bolts/welsh plugs have on the cooling system?
Common sense will tell you that there will be less water in the system. This mod isnt for just anybody and its not a silver bullet to fix any issue of block strength. What are you trying to achieve by filling it up, even if only a little bit.
#4
Heath
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:56 PM
I think he might just be curious about it. I'm a little curious myself actually
#6
_Allports_
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 06:07 PM
KKK ppl reckon it makes the bottom end of the block stronger or hold together the lower part of the crankcase etc.....Im here to tell you we tried all different ways on the Blown JZ rail, the best way or should I say the longest lasting version was nothing in the block worked the best. We tried grout, cement, hard block, Epirez. Most of these actually formed cracks on the outside of the block upon initial fire up. Even after leaving the media to cure/dry out properly.
Whilst there are engines that do benefit from this process, from what I've seen I dont believe the Holden 6 block benefits from this. If you want to keep your engine together longer just damn well run less timing and better fuel.
Whilst there are engines that do benefit from this process, from what I've seen I dont believe the Holden 6 block benefits from this. If you want to keep your engine together longer just damn well run less timing and better fuel.
Edited by Allports, 07 June 2009 - 06:13 PM.
#7
_Squarepants_
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 07:39 PM
I was mainly curious as to whether it made any improvement to the cooling of the engine. (Maybe better coolant flow through the block due to less capacity and less dead spots in the flow pattern???)
Interesting to hear about it cracking blocks, why do you think it did this?
Surely the expansion rate of the cast block would be far greater than that of grout.
I'm not really keen on the idea myself, mainly due to the added weight it would cause (I'm assuming grout would be heavier than coolant), I just wanted to know if there really were worthwhile benefits to it.
Interesting to hear about it cracking blocks, why do you think it did this?
Surely the expansion rate of the cast block would be far greater than that of grout.
I'm not really keen on the idea myself, mainly due to the added weight it would cause (I'm assuming grout would be heavier than coolant), I just wanted to know if there really were worthwhile benefits to it.
#8
_Allports_
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Posted 07 June 2009 - 08:20 PM
the cooling system has a reduced capacity so it should by rights run a little hotter. The oil also needs changing more frequently as it doesnt get cooled as well. as for the cracks ???? NFI we tried filling them all the way up....half, 3/4 all cracked so ???I was mainly curious as to whether it made any improvement to the cooling of the engine. (Maybe better coolant flow through the block due to less capacity and less dead spots in the flow pattern???)
Interesting to hear about it cracking blocks, why do you think it did this?
Surely the expansion rate of the cast block would be far greater than that of grout.
I'm not really keen on the idea myself, mainly due to the added weight it would cause (I'm assuming grout would be heavier than coolant), I just wanted to know if there really were worthwhile benefits to it.
#9
_82911_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 12:15 PM
Allports,
can i just say that, whilst I agree with a lot of the outcomes you are quoting I think you might have missed the point a little.....
I think your findings might have something to do with exceeding the construction design limits of a Holden 6 by about 400%.
Please stop quoting Mr Zullo's exploits as examples that might be useful for comparison with anything other than a 310cube 40psi 13:1 alky fed rail that weighs 1500lbs.
The fellas here are talking "street engines" or in the extreme "street/strip engines". Yes your info is enlightening but given the environment... somewhat anecdotal.
FWIW.. In an application similar to that which most here will use, I have found that a 1/2 fill will help with harmonics slightly, but the trade off is a huge loss in cooling capacity. This must be recovered somewhere or the engine will not stay cool in a "street" application.
Cheers Greg..
can i just say that, whilst I agree with a lot of the outcomes you are quoting I think you might have missed the point a little.....
I think your findings might have something to do with exceeding the construction design limits of a Holden 6 by about 400%.
Please stop quoting Mr Zullo's exploits as examples that might be useful for comparison with anything other than a 310cube 40psi 13:1 alky fed rail that weighs 1500lbs.
The fellas here are talking "street engines" or in the extreme "street/strip engines". Yes your info is enlightening but given the environment... somewhat anecdotal.
FWIW.. In an application similar to that which most here will use, I have found that a 1/2 fill will help with harmonics slightly, but the trade off is a huge loss in cooling capacity. This must be recovered somewhere or the engine will not stay cool in a "street" application.
Cheers Greg..
#10
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 02:30 PM
Thanks 82911, that's more like the info I was after.
I still don't think I'll do it because, as you say, there is a huge loss in cooling capacity.
Thanks to Allports too, as all opinions are welcomed and encouraged.
I still don't think I'll do it because, as you say, there is a huge loss in cooling capacity.
Thanks to Allports too, as all opinions are welcomed and encouraged.
#11
_82911_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 03:41 PM
I found it to be beneficial in an endurance application. But you will need to run a swirl pot/header tank of at least 5 litres capacity to recover the lost coolant volume.
Cheers Greg...
Cheers Greg...
#12
_oldjohnno_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:30 PM
In theory at least, coolant volume should have no effect on cooling capacity; so long as heat is being picked up and dumped at an adequate rate it shouldn't make any difference whether the coolant volume is 5 litres or 50... A smaller volume might even have some benefit in that the smaller thermal mass would allow a quicker warmup.
In the real world however I can see the benefits of maintaining a reasonably big coolant volume, especially in longer events. If you have a coolant volume of say 15 litres you can afford to lose a couple of litres without much ill-effect; on the other hand a system with the bare minimum of coolant volume has no such safety margin and may cook with any significant losses.
BTW Greg I see where you are coming from re Allports comments, but I also have to say that I appreciate his posts even if they aren't always directly applicable to the more "normal" engines most of us have. On most forums (including this one) there always seems to be a small handful of people who stand out from the misinformation-spreading crowd with credible and insightful posts, and I'd include both you and Allports in this group.
In the real world however I can see the benefits of maintaining a reasonably big coolant volume, especially in longer events. If you have a coolant volume of say 15 litres you can afford to lose a couple of litres without much ill-effect; on the other hand a system with the bare minimum of coolant volume has no such safety margin and may cook with any significant losses.
BTW Greg I see where you are coming from re Allports comments, but I also have to say that I appreciate his posts even if they aren't always directly applicable to the more "normal" engines most of us have. On most forums (including this one) there always seems to be a small handful of people who stand out from the misinformation-spreading crowd with credible and insightful posts, and I'd include both you and Allports in this group.
#13
_Drag lc_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 05:49 PM
Hi , we have a red 202 street/ drag one might say and it is filled with hard blok see pic and we have run this set up on the street now for a while with no cooling diffrence.yes it takes notabily less water now .also i might add the engine is very heavy now with this extra stuff on it .and finaly there is a process that you go through before the block is filled unsure but it might help in the cracking of the blocks as stated in the above posts.as i got an engine builder in town here to fill ours as he does most of the block filling here in town.
Thanks hayden
Thanks hayden
#14
_82911_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 07:19 PM
BTW Greg I see where you are coming from re Allports comments, but I also have to say that I appreciate his posts even if they aren't always directly applicable to the more "normal" engines most of us have. On most forums (including this one) there always seems to be a small handful of people who stand out from the misinformation-spreading crowd with credible and insightful posts, and I'd include both you and Allports in this group.
Oh, I absolutely agree.. just thought the comparison was a little bit of overkill, that's all.
In theory at least, coolant volume should have no effect on cooling capacity; so long as heat is being picked up and dumped at an adequate rate it shouldn't make any difference whether the coolant volume is 5 litres or 50...
Once again , I agree.. But the Holden 6's coolant flow path is very ineficient and the water pump is not great either. So in a "real world" application, such as this, there is a need to build a fair bit of redundancy into the system. My researrch found that at least 5 litres was needed to recover the losses associated with a 1/2 grout fill of the block.
Cheers Greg..
#15
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 08:57 PM
So I guess, long story short, Would you recommend it? And would it definately need an extra 5L+ reservoir?
I'm planning on building a turbo EFI, Red block, 12 port head motor and was considering doing the grout 1/2 filled block as I've seen a lot of people do it in similar applications.
Thanks for the input so far.
I'm planning on building a turbo EFI, Red block, 12 port head motor and was considering doing the grout 1/2 filled block as I've seen a lot of people do it in similar applications.
Thanks for the input so far.
#16
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:07 PM
First a few questions..
Bore size?
Static comp ratio?
How much boost?
How much duration on the cam?
What fuel?
How lean are you going to tune it?
Daily drive or race only?
Bore size?
Static comp ratio?
How much boost?
How much duration on the cam?
What fuel?
How lean are you going to tune it?
Daily drive or race only?
#17
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 09:54 PM
First a few questions..
Bore size?
Static comp ratio?
How much boost?
How much duration on the cam?
What fuel?
How lean are you going to tune it?
Daily drive or race only?
I'm still in the planning/collecting stage atm so...
-202 (92mm) +0.030" (ideal), 0.040"(if I need to) or 0.060" (at the most)
-approx 8.5:1
-anywhere between 12-20psi (as much as I can safely)
-dunno about cam yet, gonna see Tihge(sp?) Eng. for a solid turbo grind. (unless you know someone better)
-PULP Pump fuel, octane booster if required
-as stoich as I can
-neither daily nor race, but definately street, weekender (more daily than race).
Got a VK EFI manifold, gonna get VK zorst manifold and plumb turbo (T3/T4 hybrid or T04[still uncertain of specs]) forward to front of motor, will have front mount intercooler, 6 coils, Haltech (maybe) computer.
That's about as far as my plans have gotten so far, any advise will be greatly appreciated.
#18
_82911_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:05 PM
Seriously.... could you be any more indecisive??? 
Ok.... what are your goals with this engine... realistically.
Remember 20psi and 8.5:1 with an auto and 2.78:1 gears isn't going to work on pump fuel... so you can't have your cake and eat it too
Cheers Greg..
Ok.... what are your goals with this engine... realistically.
Remember 20psi and 8.5:1 with an auto and 2.78:1 gears isn't going to work on pump fuel... so you can't have your cake and eat it too
Cheers Greg..
Edited by 82911, 08 June 2009 - 10:06 PM.
#19
_why-psi_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:13 PM
my blown 202 will be running 15 psi block isnt grout filled. has head studs and 6.8:1 comp ratio. previously ran 12psi with a T03 turbo. with 8.5:1 comp you probably wouldnt go past 10 psi as your "effective" compression ratio under boost becomes 15.4:1 @12psi or 20.1:1 @ 20psi which would require Methanol. i think.
greg beat me to it
greg beat me to it
Edited by why-psi, 08 June 2009 - 10:14 PM.
#20
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:14 PM
Like I stated, still in planning/collecting stage atm. Indecisive is my middle name right now! 
Goals... I don't care about times or figures, I just wanna smoke tyres through as many gears as I can.
5 spd and 3.45's.
Goals... I don't care about times or figures, I just wanna smoke tyres through as many gears as I can.
5 spd and 3.45's.
#21
_82911_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:40 PM
Forget the grout and all the bespoke trickery...
Build this...........
202 BLUE +.020 dish top ACLs
Large chamber 12 port head.
Roller rockers Bolt on will be fine.
Small turbo grind cam.
Aim for around 9.5:1 comp
VK injection manifold should be fine.
440cc injectors.
TO4/TO3 Hybrid or similar.
Autronic/Vipec/Motec ecu.
Bosch 044 pressure pump.
E85 FUEL
Set wastegate at 12psi.
Get a GOOD CLUTCH...
That will be a ball tearer that will idle well not get hot and be very reliable. As well it ill have little to no lag.
If you can't get E85 where you live then knock the comp back to 9:1 , boost back to 10psi and rig up some water injection.
I would TRY VERY HARD TO GET THE E85....
Cheers Greg...
Build this...........
202 BLUE +.020 dish top ACLs
Large chamber 12 port head.
Roller rockers Bolt on will be fine.
Small turbo grind cam.
Aim for around 9.5:1 comp
VK injection manifold should be fine.
440cc injectors.
TO4/TO3 Hybrid or similar.
Autronic/Vipec/Motec ecu.
Bosch 044 pressure pump.
E85 FUEL
Set wastegate at 12psi.
Get a GOOD CLUTCH...
That will be a ball tearer that will idle well not get hot and be very reliable. As well it ill have little to no lag.
If you can't get E85 where you live then knock the comp back to 9:1 , boost back to 10psi and rig up some water injection.
I would TRY VERY HARD TO GET THE E85....
Cheers Greg...
#22
_Squarepants_
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Posted 08 June 2009 - 10:52 PM
Legend!!! Thanks for that!
I've always been more of a fan for higher comp and lower boost.
Where should I be looking for E85, Shell?
I haven't seen it around, but then, I've never really looked for it.
I plan to use a pre-pollution red block, but I may consider restamping a later block if there's any significant gain to be had???
What do you think about Haltech computers?
Do you think a Celica steel case 5 spd would be up to the task?
I've always been more of a fan for higher comp and lower boost.
Where should I be looking for E85, Shell?
I haven't seen it around, but then, I've never really looked for it.
I plan to use a pre-pollution red block, but I may consider restamping a later block if there's any significant gain to be had???
What do you think about Haltech computers?
Do you think a Celica steel case 5 spd would be up to the task?
#23
orangeLJ
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 11:28 AM
I havent come accross a single servo selling E85 so there couldnt be too many.
I can buy it by the drum direct from the petrol company or the other places we buy fuels (like we do C10 or methanol)
Anyone know of servos selling it?
As for the gearbox, depends how nice you are to it, I flog the balls off my celica box, (touch wood) it hasnt given up yet.
I think your Banjo would probably give up the ghost before the gb.
Id invest in an explosion proof flywheel (yella terra) to go with it too.
I can buy it by the drum direct from the petrol company or the other places we buy fuels (like we do C10 or methanol)
Anyone know of servos selling it?
As for the gearbox, depends how nice you are to it, I flog the balls off my celica box, (touch wood) it hasnt given up yet.
I think your Banjo would probably give up the ghost before the gb.
Id invest in an explosion proof flywheel (yella terra) to go with it too.
#24
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 02:35 PM
Apparently United Petroleum are the distributors for E85. A google search points to a servo in Virginia that supoosedly has a pump but upon further investigation the pump doesnt seem to exist and the servo denies any knowledge of it. Looks like no E85 pumps in QLD as yet. You can get it thru ELF fuels in a drum if you are really keen.
#25
_82911_
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Posted 09 June 2009 - 04:14 PM
There are 4 outlets in metro Sydney and 2 on the south coast.
The availability will increase dramatically next year after the release of Holdens new "flex fuel" car.
The 2 main refineries are CSR and Manildra.
It's definately worth the trouble to find it.
Cheers Greg..
The availability will increase dramatically next year after the release of Holdens new "flex fuel" car.
The 2 main refineries are CSR and Manildra.
It's definately worth the trouble to find it.
Cheers Greg..
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