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Turbo 202

Started by _lj chev_ , Nov 23 2005 06:11 PM

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#1 _lj chev_

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 06:11 PM

Hey all im not really a turbo fan but i have seen some good power figures from turbo 202's and im thinking in a torana this would be fun for an every day driver

i no its been done b4 but what sorta engine/turbo/trans combo's are people running and what sort of power do they make? what needs to be looked at with the engine to keep it in one piece?

whats really got me interested is that i've heard of people using the wastegate to control boost, so one minute they have a virtually stock car then with a flick of a switch its goes like stink. how true is this?

im thinking of running engine on gas with the fuel prices atm.

all thoughts would be appreciated

cheers ryan

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#2 _mike_nofx_

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 04:36 PM

I got a 202 (208) with a T04 AiResearch turbo. Twin SU suck through carbs. Celica 5 spd. running 6psi. No idea on power yet, but as soon as i get the turbo rebuilt i will get it dyno-tuned.

As for controlling the boost, do you mean using a boost controller? because i think the only was you can adjust the boost with a wastegate is to change the spring??

But with a boost controller you can change the boost whenever you want. You can get 2 position switches for in the car. Like 6 or 12 psi.

I use mine as a daily driver, and yeh its fun, but like you said it uses shit loads of fuel, around 23L/100km. and thats driving to work and back. I often fill up twice on a weekend if i drive hard. so gas would be good.

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#3 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 12:51 AM

I'm building my turbo torana to run straight LPG, running a GRA 440 carby and more than likly twin b2's. Will be loads of fun when it's ready to drive, pitty that will be atleast 12mths away i think, at current work progress and lack of funds. Gotta spend some on my DD and my panel van soon.

My wastegate is set to 9psi, and i'm trying to work out how to make an adjuster screw in the feed to the wastegate for a few psi more, been told i should be able to get 10 - 12 psi ok with LPG. It's a simple job in a blow thru turbo setup, but not so simple in a draw thru such as the old strata kits. I could always put a restricter in there, so it would peak higher before falling back to 9psi, i wonder how well that would work....

Eventually i wanna go to a blow thru setup, but i'll cut my teeth on the draw thru setup.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#4 _mike_nofx_

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 02:56 PM

Why dont you just get a cheap boost controller?

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#5 _Keithy's_UC_

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 08:21 PM

I'd be very interested to see power outputs and 1/4 mile timecards for the turbo 202's!! Im interested in Turbocharging my HP (179 - 186 bore)....
Keith

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#6 Heath

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Posted 30 November 2005 - 08:34 PM

Well a violet LJ 2-door that has pretty wide rear tyres down here in Vic runs a 10.9. I've got some photos if you're interested. I don't think it's a very suitable street car though... I'm interested in having a turbo six in my next Torana project but no mini tubbing or any of that, just a quick streeter that needs minimal engineering.

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#7 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 12:40 AM

Why dont you just get a cheap boost controller?

Because as i said in a draw thru setup it's not so simple..... Unless it's bled back into the inlet after the carby. But that creates another problem, controlling your a/f ratios.

In a blow thru setup, if using EFI you don't have a combustible air & fuel mixture in the turbo or inlet housing, and in the tube that feeds the wastegate. Only air, nothing more. In a draw thru setup, the air and fuel is compressed by the turbo, then feed into the engine, and into the waste gate signal line, where a " boost controller " goes. Imagine what would happen if you started to bleed the wastegate signal? You would end up letting a very explosive mixture into your engine bay. Very dangerous...

Eventually i want to go to a blow thru setup, as all modern turbo setups are, i would like to do it with LPG injection, but that will be a few years before i can get the hardware to do the job. I might make a stop over with a blow thru GRA carby setup. The GRA is so versatile, it's worth the $$.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#8 makka

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 10:07 AM

torana guy, a wastegate only vents burnt gasses (exhaust) back into the exhaust so it doesnt go through the impeller. a blow off valve would be dangerous on a draw thru setup because it would vent fuel/air directly into the atmosphere. I cant see any problems with controlling the boost with an adjustable wastegate, but I also dont deal with turbos all that often.....

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#9 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 11:16 AM

torana guy, a wastegate only vents burnt gasses (exhaust) back into the exhaust so it doesnt go through the impeller. a blow off valve would be dangerous on a draw thru setup because it would vent fuel/air directly into the atmosphere. I cant see any problems with controlling the boost with an adjustable wastegate, but I also dont deal with turbos all that often.....

Boost controller and adjustable wastegate are two differant things!

A wastegate is actuated by boost pressure from your manifold, in a draw thru setup that also happens to be a combustible air & fuel mixture. :ph34r:

To controll the boost level in a setup where the wastegate is set, you plumb in a boost controller, which limits the pressure the wastegate "sees" and means the wastegate stays closed longer, for higher boost. You have to bleed this somewhere, in a blow thru setup the guys usually just bleed it to the atmosphere, but you can't do that in a draw thru setup.

I've already got a 42mm wastegate, to get an adjustable one would cost me a lot, i looked at the idea, and for now it's just not affordable. In the future maybe.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

Edited by ToranaGuy, 01 December 2005 - 11:17 AM.

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#10 makka

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 09:49 AM

cheers for clearing that up mate.

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#11 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 02:11 AM

cheers for clearing that up mate.

That's cool man.

As for the topic of 202's being turbo'd, there is that dude over perth way with 500 RWHP or there abouts, was just under it with a T04B and with a larger turbo seen just over it.

I've got an article on a lime green Lc/j ( can't remember which one ) that made really good power with a strata kit with twin su's and was good for 13's or so iirc. Might have been faster, i'll look thru my mags and see if i can find it.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#12 Struggler

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 08:17 AM

Torana Guy, I'm not sure your draw thru LPG system will be a real success. Every LPG turbo set up I have encountered is blow thru. Why would you want to use a draw thru system ?? Even GRA recommend a blow thru set up.

Also I have seen the use of a wastegate on the compressor side of a turbo set up before. This allows the turbo to work at max revs all the time and the wastegate dumps pressure before the intake. Used with a solenoid it can apply instant boost, handy for drag racing but hard on the poor old turbo that is working flat out all the time. I couldn't recommend it.

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#13 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 05:21 PM

Torana Guy, I'm not sure your draw thru LPG system will be a real success. Every LPG turbo set up I have encountered is blow thru. Why would you want to use a draw thru system ?? Even GRA recommend a blow thru set up.

Your right about GRA recommending blow thru. Why i'm using draw thru is because i've got the old strata kit, and i've replaced the 45 DCOE weber & adapter with a custom machined adapter & GRA. It's a shortcut to turboing my Torana. I do want a blow thru setup, but to do that, i would need either a custom inlet or custom exhaust manifold, depending on if i use the original red head first, or the blue 12 port i have in the shed.

I shouldn't have much trouble with the setup. With the carbies & petrol, when the engine is running @ slow speeds you have trouble with " puddling " of fuel before you hit boost, which can't happen with LPG. I may have some issue with idle quality, but there should still be a vacume in the inlet system, enough to help the lpg flow from carby to turbo comp.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#14 _coupe202_

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 06:17 PM

heath can you post those photos of that violet 2 door lj torana

thanks mate

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#15 _mike_nofx_

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Posted 14 December 2005 - 09:28 PM

What if you vent the boost controller gasses into the exhaust hehe.... then have a spark plug at the end of the exhaust.
Whenever you hit high boost you'll be shooting flames out the zorst..

...maybe

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#16 Jay#2

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 01:45 AM

A recuirculating blow off (dump) valve vents back into the intake, so it could be possible to route a bleed valve in the same way. Say, between the air filter and the carb somewhere where it's contained.

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#17 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 02:18 AM

Mike_nofx - That wouldn't be very legal, and i'm looking at building a legal car. Not sure if i will have it full rego or club rego. Will depend on finances once the car is complete. But it has to be street legal either way!

Jay#2 - Some old school turbo setups use them to vent manifold pressure, and keep the turbo from slowing down too quickly, between gear changes. There isn't a lot of info around about recirc blow off valves. I wouldn't imagine it would be too good for your a/f ratio when you back off the throttle... You have me thinking now. A bleed setup that bleeds the wastegate signal back into the inlet before the turbo comp but after the carb shouldn't make it run too much richer, and would give higher boost. Hell, if it's only a tad richer, it would be a good thing. There is two fittings for " vacume " attachments in my intake between the carb & turbo, i wonder if i could use one for this purpose. I know one needs to be plumbed to my brake booster, the other, well i'm going to run an electric dizzy, so probably not needed.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#18 Jay#2

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 06:12 PM

Yeah most new turbo cars have a recir blow off valve standard but these are all fuel injected meaning there venting just filtered air back into the inlet tract. But how much air does a bleed valve vent? Not as much as a blow off valve and not enough to muck around the fuel metering. The only thing with bleeding back between the carb and turbo is that your bleeding into a vacume rather than into atmopheric pressure, so I don't know how this would affect your signal.

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#19 J-Rod

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Posted 15 December 2005 - 06:47 PM

But how much air does a bleed valve vent? Not as much as a blow off valve and not enough to muck around the fuel metering.

you can get recirc valves that will flow over 50 cfm. I think that would realy mess with your AF ratio.

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#20 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 12:09 AM

But how much air does a bleed valve vent? Not as much as a blow off valve and not enough to muck around the fuel metering.
you can get recirc valves that will flow over 50 cfm. I think that would realy mess with your AF ratio.

50 CFM? Holy crap!

That's a lotta a/f mixture. Definatly enough to screw with the mixture.

It is a valid point tho, would just bleeding a bit of the wastegate signal back into the inlet manifold mess with the a/f that much? If it's withing 5% it wouldn't matter too much....

Bleeding into a vacume, well it could mess with the vacume signal, so i would need to run a vac tank so i wouldn't loose the brakes. I somehow don't see that passing an engi report. Would be easier to get an adjustable wastegate compared to the engi hassels such an arrangement could cause.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#21 _Terrible One_

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Posted 19 December 2005 - 08:18 PM

I believe couple202 on here owns the violet LJ 2 door mentioned in the topic. Gotta say, it's a lovely piece of machinery.

I'm currently building a EFI/turbo 202 for my LJ 2 door, aiming for over 400rwhp and hoping to eventually run into the 10's. It'll be a daily driver.

Honestly guys, I've played with a suck through turbo 173 using a single stromberg and I have to admit that it left ALOT to be desired in the drivability/fuel usage department.

Personally I'd go with EFI. It'll cost more initially but the extra power, drivability and being able to tune it properly completely outweighs the advantages of a carby setup. If you can get your hands on a 2nd hand ECU you only need a little bit of nous and money to get it running EFI. Use a VK manifold, TP magna injectors, VK fuel rail, electric fuel pump and an ECU and you'll never regret it.

My $0.02.

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#22 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 20 December 2005 - 12:17 AM

I believe couple202 on here owns the violet LJ 2 door mentioned in the topic. Gotta say, it's a lovely piece of machinery.

I'm currently building a EFI/turbo 202 for my LJ 2 door, aiming for over 400rwhp and hoping to eventually run into the 10's. It'll be a daily driver.

Honestly guys, I've played with a suck through turbo 173 using a single stromberg and I have to admit that it left ALOT to be desired in the drivability/fuel usage department.

Personally I'd go with EFI. It'll cost more initially but the extra power, drivability and being able to tune it properly completely outweighs the advantages of a carby setup. If you can get your hands on a 2nd hand ECU you only need a little bit of nous and money to get it running EFI. Use a VK manifold, TP magna injectors, VK fuel rail, electric fuel pump and an ECU and you'll never regret it.

My $0.02.

Granted EFI is much better, but If i was to do it EFI, i would be wanting LPG EFI, and yes it does exist, but there is an issue atm, not enough aftermarket parts availible yet. I would use a MegaSquirt DIY ECU. About $280 AUD shipped to aus, all i have to do is assemble it and tune it. As in build it from a pile of parts, but i'm capable of that.

Cheers

ToranaGuy

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#23 _lcgtr_

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 06:12 AM

Tell me more about this MegaSquirt. I herd a guy on about it the other day

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#24 J-Rod

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:17 AM

Have a read of these:

http://www.msefi.com/

http://www.megasquirt.info/

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#25 _ToranaGuy_

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 01:44 PM

Have a read of these:

http://www.msefi.com/

http://www.megasquirt.info/

Glad someone posted up the links, they are definatly worth the read (long). You'll learn a lot about basic EFI and that it really isn't that complex, if you break it down into all the sub-systems.

I've been looking around, there are ppl who have turbo'd the LPGI in Europe, but it doesn't say much about hardware used, esp the fuel regs & how to set them up! :cry: