Floor mounted start button? I've never heard of that? What car?
It's a 1935 Willys four door sedan ,77 series .
Here's something about an accumulator...
http://www.cardwells.../MenuId/74.aspx
push button start
Started by
_marshallLX_
, May 24 2010 07:39 PM
77 replies to this topic
#51
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:12 PM
#52
_torbirdie_
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:44 PM
The last car I remember having this feature would have been early (60's) Mini's with the start button on the floor?A lot of cars these days you have to turn the key back to the lock position before you can attempt to re-crank. Some you have to pull the key out and re-fit it.
Late Saab for 1
does this apply when the car is in neutral and still moving or just when it is parked and/or in park?
#53
rodomo
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:48 PM
Good question?
If you turn the car off, you can't turn the key to restart until you remove and refit the key.
Next time I service one, I'll try to re-engage the starter running (accidently of course
)
While we're on this subject, the current model falcon and commodore have a "crank til start" feature where you can let go of the key and it will keep cranking intil it either fires or the feature times out.
If you turn the car off, you can't turn the key to restart until you remove and refit the key.
Next time I service one, I'll try to re-engage the starter running (accidently of course
)While we're on this subject, the current model falcon and commodore have a "crank til start" feature where you can let go of the key and it will keep cranking intil it either fires or the feature times out.
Edited by rodomo, 29 May 2010 - 12:58 PM.
#54
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 12:48 PM
Nothing wrong with start buttons , Holdens used them for years . If you don't want to use two hands to start a car , one of my cars has a foot operated ,floor mounted start button , factory fitted .
Nothing wrong with start buttons per say, but Im sure the older ones only required you to turn the ignition to on, and not have to hold it against spring tension while the starter button was activated.
This couldnt have been the case in the old minis whre the key and the starter button were both on the left of the driver.
Edited by torbirdie, 29 May 2010 - 12:49 PM.
#55
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 01:22 PM
That ACCUSUMP is a very interesting device, basically as it's name suggests it is an accumulator with function enhancing check valves. Neat!
The Accusump is basically a tube with a piston in the middle. One side of the piston is pressurised with air to around 35 psi. The other side is connected an oil gallery. When the Accusump is empty the piston is pushed all the way to the oil side. When the engine is running and the oil pump pressure is greater than the air pressure oil will enter the Accusump, pushing the piston to compress the air until it equalises with the oil pressure. If the oil pressure is 50 psi then the piston in the Accusump will be pushed to compress the air in the Accusump to 50 psi.
To setup the Accusump you fill the engine will oil and run the engine at normal oil pressure it until the Accusump is full then shutoff the valve and top up the oil level in the engine.
The Accusump will only release oil is if the oil pump pressure drops below the pressure in the Accusump. Normally oil pump pressure would only drop be because there is insufficient oil at the pickup therefore the additional oil will not cause a problem. Once oil returns to the pickup the oil pump pressure will return to normal and the Accusump will store the excess oil for next time.
#56
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 04:56 PM
That ACCUSUMP is a very interesting device, basically as it's name suggests it is an accumulator with function enhancing check valves. Neat!
The Accusump is basically a tube with a piston in the middle. One side of the piston is pressurised with air to around 35 psi. The other side is connected an oil gallery. When the Accusump is empty the piston is pushed all the way to the oil side. When the engine is running and the oil pump pressure is greater than the air pressure oil will enter the Accusump, pushing the piston to compress the air until it equalises with the oil pressure. If the oil pressure is 50 psi then the piston in the Accusump will be pushed to compress the air in the Accusump to 50 psi.
To setup the Accusump you fill the engine will oil and run the engine at normal oil pressure it until the Accusump is full then shutoff the valve and top up the oil level in the engine.
The Accusump will only release oil is if the oil pump pressure drops below the pressure in the Accusump. Normally oil pump pressure would only drop be because there is insufficient oil at the pickup therefore the additional oil will not cause a problem. Once oil returns to the pickup the oil pump pressure will return to normal and the Accusump will store the excess oil for next time.
So the way that is explained... Once the engine is shut of for a period of time, the Accusump (accumulator) will bleed the pressure off (as there is no engine oil pressure). Thus, when you restart the engine, you still have zero oil pressure, and an overfull sump. Is that right or am I misunderstanding something?
As far as the start button goes, I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a safety feature, but I don't believe it's a safety hazard (in a manual trans car) either. I have an over-ride switch and a manual gearbox, so I can still start the engine with 1 hand if I need to (by flicking the switch), or pop the clutch if it dies on the run with the clutch in (if it dies with the clutch out then the starter isn't going to help me, as I have already mentioned). And I am never going to loan my car to anyone, EVER, so I'm the only one that has to know how to drive it.
It's not a safety feature but it may slow a would-be thief down long enough for me to grab him/her and have my evil way with them. Plus it's cool when I have mates in the car.
Like I said earlier, pure wank factor, but a safety hazard... No.
#57
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 04:59 PM
So the way that is explained... Once the engine is shut of for a period of time, the Accusump (accumulator) will bleed the pressure off (as there is no engine oil pressure). Thus, when you restart the engine, you still have zero oil pressure, and an overfull sump. Is that right or am I misunderstanding something?
Here's a link supplied on the last page: http://www.cardwells.../MenuId/74.aspx
#58
ls2lxhatch
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Posted 29 May 2010 - 08:59 PM
So the way that is explained... Once the engine is shut of for a period of time, the Accusump (accumulator) will bleed the pressure off (as there is no engine oil pressure). Thus, when you restart the engine, you still have zero oil pressure, and an overfull sump. Is that right or am I misunderstanding something?
There are two options.
1. An electric valve that is triggered by the ignition.
2. A manual valve that you close before shutting the engine down and open before starting. This method is the more suitable for a track car.
Edited by ls2lxhatch, 29 May 2010 - 08:59 PM.
#59
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Posted 30 May 2010 - 10:53 PM
Here's an accumulator on 'The Green Brick' from Mopar Action Magazine Black tube on the left of the picture. Not big enough to overfill the sump by much.
It has an electronic valve which releases oil into the engine with ignition on (no engine oil pressure) lubing everything before start. Once running it opens again only once oil pressure goes above a set level and fills it again.
It stays shut until above the set point to avoid a loss of oil pressure from filling during the normal oil pressure range.
During really long and hard cornering the pressure MAY drop and the valve would open to supply oil so the engine doesn't starve. (This car was raced at drag strips, race tracks including oval tracks.)
From what I can remember, there was a switch to disable the valve so it stayed shut while the engine was turned off (after some big revs to increase oil pressure) and the accumulator could remain full while the ignition was turned on for- whatever.
It's a normally closed valve so the unit could be removed from the car and power source while full and holding pressure. I think it's plumbed into an adapter between the oil filter and the block.
When the engine was to be started, the switch was turned on again and with ignition on, the valve would open (sensing low/no oil pressure) allowing oil into the engine and showing a positive oil pressure reading on the dash before cranking.
Edited by Gunmetal LH, 30 May 2010 - 10:58 PM.
#60
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 12:38 AM
RRS has one on the LC
#61
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 12:59 AM
Here's a link supplied on the last page: http://www.cardwells.../MenuId/74.aspx
I find their explanation a lil confusing as oil pressure varies with R.P.M. so this would mean that if you slowed for a slow/tight corner the engine oil pressure would be maintained via the reserve stored but if you were to spin in the same corner then the reserve would be empty, defeating the purpose?
I see merit for a start up tho.
I also see merit in a start button set up correctly but remember that the start circuit on the key usually by passes alot of things on the on circuit, which would still have power it you were to use a start button on the on setting of the ignition switch.
#62
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 01:03 PM
I also see merit in a start button set up correctly but remember that the start circuit on the key usually by passes alot of things on the on circuit, which would still have power it you were to use a start button on the on setting of the ignition switch.
That's really the issue, that it is set up correctly to cut the power to the accessory items when the starter is cranked so that more power is available to the starter(though killing the sound from the radio could "arguably" be all that is important if the battery is more than adequate).
The only way it can be done properly is with some substantial relays to switch out the accessories and bypass the coil resistance wire(unlikely to be still there on a modded car), when the starter button is cranked.(unless of course the starter button itself does the switching for high currents)
one could take out the spring in the existing switch and put a stop there so it doesnt need to be held, but then that would require the driver to return it to the on position once started.
Newer cars are most likely already setup with relays from the ignition switch(rather than the high currents that old holden switches handle) and those tacky looking start buttons that are sold on ebay etc probably work ok for them.
Edited by torbirdie, 31 May 2010 - 01:07 PM.
#63
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 01:13 PM
That's really the issue, that it is set up correctly to cut the power to the accessory items when the starter is cranked so that more power is available to the starter(though killing the sound from the radio could "arguably" be all that is important if the battery is more than adequate).
The only way it can be done properly is with some substantial relays to switch out the accessories and bypass the coil resistance wire(unlikely to be still there on a modded car), when the starter button is cranked.(unless of course the starter button itself does the switching for high currents)
one could take out the spring in the existing switch and put a stop there so it doesnt need to be held, but then that would require the driver to return it to the on position once started.
All the more reason to use the push-button switch to shut off the ignition rather than spin the starter. This way the starter circuit remains as is and all the accessories are isolated on cranking.
#64
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 09:32 PM
I did a quick google look and found there are plenty of 12v diaphragm pumps good for up to 100 PSI that flow upwards of 18L per minute.
http://www.pumpwareh...ategory24_1.htm
Assuming the viscosity of engine oil has a limited impact, this pump could possibly be used to pre-lube the engine prior cranking/firing. The install would involve a filter adapter and returning the pump output to the block through an adapter into the oil pressure sender hole.
Just my thoughts, no guarantee it will work.
http://www.pumpwareh...ategory24_1.htm
Assuming the viscosity of engine oil has a limited impact, this pump could possibly be used to pre-lube the engine prior cranking/firing. The install would involve a filter adapter and returning the pump output to the block through an adapter into the oil pressure sender hole.
Just my thoughts, no guarantee it will work.
#65
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 10:26 PM
They look like water pumps to me.
Anyway just remember - FLOW- not pressure lubricates your bearings and if the crank ain't turning fast enough in the bearings then the oil wedge will not float the crank.
I prefer the old school way, get it started in the least possible cranks.
You also save weight with the minimum of gadgets bolted to the car.
Anyway just remember - FLOW- not pressure lubricates your bearings and if the crank ain't turning fast enough in the bearings then the oil wedge will not float the crank.
I prefer the old school way, get it started in the least possible cranks.
You also save weight with the minimum of gadgets bolted to the car.
#66
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Posted 31 May 2010 - 10:35 PM
They look like water pumps to me.
The top 2 look similar to what is in my van for squirting water.
I know, I've had it apart 3 times since new (6 months)
No fault of the pump though, dodgey fitment, drillings coming through from the tank.
Full plastic construction.
#67
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Posted 01 June 2010 - 03:59 PM
Good question?
If you turn the car off, you can't turn the key to restart until you remove and refit the key.
Next time I service one, I'll try to re-engage the starter running (accidently of course
While we're on this subject, the current model falcon and commodore have a "crank til start" feature where you can let go of the key and it will keep cranking intil it either fires or the feature times out.
This sort of stuff really sh!ts me....
Pretty soon you'll have to jump in, hit Alt+ctrl+del and enter your password, then press the start button.....
If you forget your password your fcked....
#68
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Posted 01 June 2010 - 04:36 PM
One of the Reno's? (I think? I don't pay much attention to cars I have no interest in) doesn't have keys, It has a credit card.
Found it, Laguna:
http://rfidiot.org/Laguna-key.jpg
Found it, Laguna:
http://rfidiot.org/Laguna-key.jpg
Edited by rodomo, 01 June 2010 - 04:37 PM.
#69
View GaragePosted 01 June 2010 - 07:39 PM
And that's to turn it off...!Pretty soon you'll have to jump in, hit Alt+ctrl+del and enter your password, then press the start button.....
#70
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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:12 PM
I still think the best cars were made in the 70's, might start stock piling them lol.
#71
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Posted 05 June 2010 - 05:50 PM
Maybe the second part of this thread should go under a new heading- 'Pre-oiling'?
Had another silly idea. (My specialty)
The hydraulic cooling fans on Toyota's. Could you take off the fan blades and attach something like an old wiper motor and make into a pump?
Would this even work like that? Anyone know?
It could draw from the sump and into the pressure side of the oil pump. (Stolen setup idea from marine engines)
Had another silly idea. (My specialty)
The hydraulic cooling fans on Toyota's. Could you take off the fan blades and attach something like an old wiper motor and make into a pump?
Would this even work like that? Anyone know?
It could draw from the sump and into the pressure side of the oil pump. (Stolen setup idea from marine engines)
#72
rodomo
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Posted 06 June 2010 - 12:21 AM
Maybe the second part of this thread should go under a new heading- 'Pre-oiling'?
Had another silly idea. (My specialty)
The hydraulic cooling fans on Toyota's. Could you take off the fan blades and attach something like an old wiper motor and make into a pump?
Would this even work like that? Anyone know?
It could draw from the sump and into the pressure side of the oil pump. (Stolen setup idea from marine engines)
Maybe?
But that would mean having Toyota parts on your Holden..............not desirable
#73
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Posted 06 June 2010 - 02:07 PM
I'd try and hide it, and put a Holley sticker on it incase someone found it.
Come to think of it, my VN has Toyota s#!t all over it. Hell it even has a F(shh) bit on it.
Come to think of it, my VN has Toyota s#!t all over it. Hell it even has a F(shh) bit on it.
#74
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Posted 06 June 2010 - 03:27 PM
12 volt oil pumps with enough pressure and volume to prelube an engine are readily available and are not excessively big and heavy.
To be honest though I think this whole prelubing thing is a solution in search of a problem..
To be honest though I think this whole prelubing thing is a solution in search of a problem..
#75
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Posted 06 June 2010 - 11:30 PM
I'd try and hide it, and put a Holley sticker on it incase someone found it.
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