What are some of the options people have done to overcome the overheating issues once you work the red 6 motor? I've heard fitting a commodore radiator has fixed the problem. If so how do you go about it? What about fitting a thermo? I have a triple core holden red 6 radiator with a thermo fitted and it isnt doing the job. I"ve had every thing cleaned/flushed/recoed properly, it seems the radiator just cant handle the extra heat being produced. What about air cond models with the extra bladed fan, anyone had success?
What's worked for you?
How do i keep my torrie cool?
Started by
_wildsix_
, May 04 2006 01:21 PM
58 replies to this topic
#2
Tiny
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Posted 04 May 2006 - 01:50 PM
This topic has been covered a HEAP of times.. Have a look in the general help section for teh massive debate on thermo fans etc...
Just have a browse through the posts especially in the general help section!
Good luck!
Just have a browse through the posts especially in the general help section!
Good luck!
#4
Ferg
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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:57 PM
If mixture and timing isnt right it will still overheat even if u have a truck radiator 
#5
_finer70_
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 05:42 PM
When you use the word "thermo" I assume you are using a thermo electric Fan.
OK so if all the hardware is OK there is no reason for it to overheat with the radiator you have.
So does the thermo fan cut in and out when it should. If not you will have heating problems.
So if the hardware is OK. Check the thermo control systems.
Might also check if the timing is retarded.
And one last thing , DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN FIX ANY OVERHEATING PROBLEM BY REMOVING THE THERMOSTAT. NO NO NO
OK so if all the hardware is OK there is no reason for it to overheat with the radiator you have.
So does the thermo fan cut in and out when it should. If not you will have heating problems.
So if the hardware is OK. Check the thermo control systems.
Might also check if the timing is retarded.
And one last thing , DO NOT LET ANYONE TELL YOU THAT YOU CAN FIX ANY OVERHEATING PROBLEM BY REMOVING THE THERMOSTAT. NO NO NO
#6
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 06:05 PM
...Judging from your alias, I'm guessing the engine's pretty worked.
Do you have any friends with similar thermo fan/radiator setups that don't have problems? Your thermo could be undersized.
Also, Fan shrouds do radically improve the efficiency of cooling fans.
The problem will probably be due to something else, but if it does turn out to be a Thermo fan problem, Twin AU thermos (with shroud) or single larger Electric fans such as 15"/16" will do a lot of good. AFAIK T0rana (member here) has a Commodore radiator with a 16" Thermo on a pretty wild 202, there have been no heating problems so far but it hasn't been used much yet. I think it could be a very good setup; we'll wait and see how it performs.
Do you have any friends with similar thermo fan/radiator setups that don't have problems? Your thermo could be undersized.
Also, Fan shrouds do radically improve the efficiency of cooling fans.
The problem will probably be due to something else, but if it does turn out to be a Thermo fan problem, Twin AU thermos (with shroud) or single larger Electric fans such as 15"/16" will do a lot of good. AFAIK T0rana (member here) has a Commodore radiator with a 16" Thermo on a pretty wild 202, there have been no heating problems so far but it hasn't been used much yet. I think it could be a very good setup; we'll wait and see how it performs.
Edited by Heath, 05 May 2006 - 06:06 PM.
#7
gtrboyy
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 06:39 PM
I had to run a 16in thermo fan & vk radiator on my old 202 which had a lot of work done to it,it didnt overheat on the hottest of days,there should be thread somewhere of what others did & what worked but first make sure what you have is in good working order & that your fan flows enough for your set-up.
#8
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 08:00 PM
WHAT WE WISH TO ACHIEVE:
To be able to drive test vehicle without the problem of "overheating"
COMPONENTS OF TEST:
1971 Holden torana
Six(6) blade fan
Themofan
A number of driving situations
Gutted thermostat
Testing officer
TEST A
I went for a casual drive around the suburbs of Capalaba and Cleveland. Stop, start traffic. A fair bit of idling. Everything stayed pretty good, the temp stayed around 190F.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: I was happy with this.
TEST B
I then went out onto the arterial road and gave it a bit, around 120km/hr. The temp still stayed around the 190F, but was on the higher side of the gauge.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: I was happy with this.
TEST C
From there I came home, on the way back a few traffic lights were incounted. This is where it went pear shaped. The temp moved towards the 210F( above this reading is a red zone, which can only be interpreted as BAD). Once I took off again the temp made its way back to 190F, a bit hotter then the highway test though.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: Curious to see what would happen If I was idling for a longer period of time.
TEST D
Once I got home I sat in the driveway for about two minutes, immediately the temp went straight to the 210F mark and looked as if it was going to go higher. I proceeded to switch the thermofan on to aid the fixed fan. After a short period of time this had no effect at all. I terminated the ignition source and opened the engine compartment. The heat transfer device was leaking coolant out the relief valve onto the driveway.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: bguckING PISSED OFF.
CONCLUSION:
1) While the engine fan was able to decrease or maintain engine temps in tests A-C, It was clearly unable to dissipate the amount of heat transfer present in test D.
2) Restricting the flow of coolant to the heat transfer device would not be beneficial as it is unable to reduce heat soak while the test vehicle is stationary over a period of time.
3) Running without a thermostat is not a good idea, but was good as a test only.
SOLUTION:
A possible solution would be a heat transfer device larger in volume capacity with additional thermatic fans.
*Notes to colleges
Please give feedback and any other remarks as this situation is of the utmost importance.
To be able to drive test vehicle without the problem of "overheating"
COMPONENTS OF TEST:
1971 Holden torana
Six(6) blade fan
Themofan
A number of driving situations
Gutted thermostat
Testing officer
TEST A
I went for a casual drive around the suburbs of Capalaba and Cleveland. Stop, start traffic. A fair bit of idling. Everything stayed pretty good, the temp stayed around 190F.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: I was happy with this.
TEST B
I then went out onto the arterial road and gave it a bit, around 120km/hr. The temp still stayed around the 190F, but was on the higher side of the gauge.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: I was happy with this.
TEST C
From there I came home, on the way back a few traffic lights were incounted. This is where it went pear shaped. The temp moved towards the 210F( above this reading is a red zone, which can only be interpreted as BAD). Once I took off again the temp made its way back to 190F, a bit hotter then the highway test though.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: Curious to see what would happen If I was idling for a longer period of time.
TEST D
Once I got home I sat in the driveway for about two minutes, immediately the temp went straight to the 210F mark and looked as if it was going to go higher. I proceeded to switch the thermofan on to aid the fixed fan. After a short period of time this had no effect at all. I terminated the ignition source and opened the engine compartment. The heat transfer device was leaking coolant out the relief valve onto the driveway.
COMMENTS FROM TESTING OFFICER: bguckING PISSED OFF.
CONCLUSION:
1) While the engine fan was able to decrease or maintain engine temps in tests A-C, It was clearly unable to dissipate the amount of heat transfer present in test D.
2) Restricting the flow of coolant to the heat transfer device would not be beneficial as it is unable to reduce heat soak while the test vehicle is stationary over a period of time.
3) Running without a thermostat is not a good idea, but was good as a test only.
SOLUTION:
A possible solution would be a heat transfer device larger in volume capacity with additional thermatic fans.
*Notes to colleges
Please give feedback and any other remarks as this situation is of the utmost importance.
#9
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 08:18 PM
Testing officer......what was the ambient temp?
This will give an idea as to the magnitude of the problem.
How much difference in temp is there between the top and bottom hose?
Will it stay cool (190F) at cruise without the engine fan?
This will give an idea as to the magnitude of the problem.
How much difference in temp is there between the top and bottom hose?
Will it stay cool (190F) at cruise without the engine fan?
Edited by devilsadvocate, 05 May 2006 - 08:23 PM.
#10
FastEHHolden
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Posted 05 May 2006 - 11:17 PM
I think you are wrong about the thermostat....restricting the flow would have slowed its passage thru the radiator giving it longer to dissipate the heat.
#11
_1QUICK LJ_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:12 AM
try a cooler thermostat it really makes a difference
#12
_pallbag_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 01:39 AM
I thought all Torries were already kewl ?
#13
rodomo
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:33 AM
They are mate, and some are hot too!I thought all Torries were already kewl ?
#14
_wildsix_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 09:38 AM
ambient temp- 25dec
top and bottom hoses same
running with no engine fan- no differance, similiar results as test c and d.
running cooler thermostat- If the engine cant keep cool running with a gutted thermostat ( which is the equavilant of any thermostat in the open position), then a cooler rated thermostat should have no effect at all. It would quicken the time in which the engine overheats as it holds onto the water in the block before releasing it.
top and bottom hoses same
running with no engine fan- no differance, similiar results as test c and d.
running cooler thermostat- If the engine cant keep cool running with a gutted thermostat ( which is the equavilant of any thermostat in the open position), then a cooler rated thermostat should have no effect at all. It would quicken the time in which the engine overheats as it holds onto the water in the block before releasing it.
#15
_finer70_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 10:03 AM
If the top and bottom hoses are the same temp, that proves there is no heat loss in the cooling system. With all fans going that is impossible. Could only happen if you directly connect top to bottom or had the ari flow completly blocked off.
When idling water pump flow is decreased markedly. If the temp can be kept at a reasonable level travelling with air flow and water flow, the question is "How can I achieve the same result at idle at lights etc??
Well three things apply:
Size is important. The radiator that is. V8 size minimum.
The fan capacity. Can be increased with mechanical + twin thermos + shrouding
Adjust fan cut in and out controls.
Make sure the water pump is at its most efficient in capacity. A smaller drive pully on the pump will increase volume output at low engine revs.
Always keep the thermostat in. Using a cooler say 170 deg F will ensure that it opens just that little early and remains open. Once it is open it has no further role.
When idling water pump flow is decreased markedly. If the temp can be kept at a reasonable level travelling with air flow and water flow, the question is "How can I achieve the same result at idle at lights etc??
Well three things apply:
Size is important. The radiator that is. V8 size minimum.
The fan capacity. Can be increased with mechanical + twin thermos + shrouding
Adjust fan cut in and out controls.
Make sure the water pump is at its most efficient in capacity. A smaller drive pully on the pump will increase volume output at low engine revs.
Always keep the thermostat in. Using a cooler say 170 deg F will ensure that it opens just that little early and remains open. Once it is open it has no further role.
#16
gtrboyy
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 11:05 AM
When I put my v8 in I found that drilling a few small holes in the thermostat & making up a shroud for the engine fan made a world of difference.No thermostat made it slow to warm up & didnt slow the water down enough to get rid of heat through the radiator,not to mention the unwanted engine wear you would have from it running cold for a longer period.
#17
_wildsix_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 11:32 AM
Have also tried a couple of holes in the thermostat. no differance
If the top and bottom hoses have a similiar temp, then the themostat is fully open and the engine fan/ thermo fan is not removing the heat generated effectively.
What this test proves is the fan and radiator are able to keep the engine at operating temps while under no load, but as soon as more heat is generated by increase engine revs this system can't removed it.
If the top and bottom hoses have a similiar temp, then the themostat is fully open and the engine fan/ thermo fan is not removing the heat generated effectively.
What this test proves is the fan and radiator are able to keep the engine at operating temps while under no load, but as soon as more heat is generated by increase engine revs this system can't removed it.
#18
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 06 May 2006 - 07:47 PM
Does sound like this is going to be a difficult one to fix, if its running at 190F/88C at an ambient of 25C at cruise with an engine fan. Its going to be off the dial at 45C ambient.
When you are testing things, change only one variable at a time....if you want to nail down what makes a difference. (Youve added the engine fan but also ripped out the thermostat) At cruise or higher rpm the lack of a restriction in the thermostat housing can reportedly cause a restriction of flow due to turbulence effects, and the car will run hotter due to inadequate flow....... Many consider pulling the thermostat increases the flow and see the temp rise due to the above effect......supporting the myth that too fast a flow restricts cooling.
For the record, ive pulled the thermostat on my red6 and have monitored the temp at the bottom rad hose, from my measurements....there was no real change in the flow on my motor so possibly its not going to do much in yours either.
Im assuming you have the smaller 3core six rad, then the larger 3core 6 rad or chev rad is worth considering, but its not going to make the difference you need.
Your comparison of top and bottom hoses tells us that circulation at idle doesnt appear a problem. If you were able to notice a difference by hand with the thermostat wide open, then you would definitely have a circulation prob. This doesnt rule out that faster circulation couldnt improve things, but its unlikely.
You might want to consider purchasing an IR thermometer(~$40-50) It will remove a lot of guess work and needless replacement of components that are not faulty.
You can get accurate temps of your top and bottom hoses and see what temp difference your combined rad/fan setup is getting. You can also target every tube in the rad and see if they are all losing temp top to bottom. Cool tubes indicate blocked tubes. Tubes that are hot all the way down indicate inadequate connection with fins.
Im suspecting that perhaps you do have some engine /head gasket problem, has this been checked out?
Can you get it to idle without overheating at all, ie hosing down the radiator when its idling should get it cool.
Keep us posted on what you try next.
When you are testing things, change only one variable at a time....if you want to nail down what makes a difference. (Youve added the engine fan but also ripped out the thermostat) At cruise or higher rpm the lack of a restriction in the thermostat housing can reportedly cause a restriction of flow due to turbulence effects, and the car will run hotter due to inadequate flow....... Many consider pulling the thermostat increases the flow and see the temp rise due to the above effect......supporting the myth that too fast a flow restricts cooling.
For the record, ive pulled the thermostat on my red6 and have monitored the temp at the bottom rad hose, from my measurements....there was no real change in the flow on my motor so possibly its not going to do much in yours either.
Im assuming you have the smaller 3core six rad, then the larger 3core 6 rad or chev rad is worth considering, but its not going to make the difference you need.
Your comparison of top and bottom hoses tells us that circulation at idle doesnt appear a problem. If you were able to notice a difference by hand with the thermostat wide open, then you would definitely have a circulation prob. This doesnt rule out that faster circulation couldnt improve things, but its unlikely.
You might want to consider purchasing an IR thermometer(~$40-50) It will remove a lot of guess work and needless replacement of components that are not faulty.
You can get accurate temps of your top and bottom hoses and see what temp difference your combined rad/fan setup is getting. You can also target every tube in the rad and see if they are all losing temp top to bottom. Cool tubes indicate blocked tubes. Tubes that are hot all the way down indicate inadequate connection with fins.
Im suspecting that perhaps you do have some engine /head gasket problem, has this been checked out?
Can you get it to idle without overheating at all, ie hosing down the radiator when its idling should get it cool.
Keep us posted on what you try next.
#19
makka
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Posted 07 May 2006 - 01:59 PM
have you checked your timing and mixture yet?
#20
_wildsix_
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Posted 07 May 2006 - 03:37 PM
Have adjusted mistures and timing a number of times to get it running at its best. Thinking dyno might be the best solution to this.
Running triple strommies and a 23/65 hyd cam, also have had the elect. dizzy recurved amongst other things.
When I had the radiator recoed the guy there said that the radiator might not be up to the new motor, which is becoming more aparent.
I'll drop in on monday and see what he suggests.
Surely it couldnt be that hard to fix this. Just look at shows on Tv like American hot rod, there must be an easy solution.
Next Im going to try just running with a 180f thermostat with the six bladed fan.
Running triple strommies and a 23/65 hyd cam, also have had the elect. dizzy recurved amongst other things.
When I had the radiator recoed the guy there said that the radiator might not be up to the new motor, which is becoming more aparent.
I'll drop in on monday and see what he suggests.
Surely it couldnt be that hard to fix this. Just look at shows on Tv like American hot rod, there must be an easy solution.
Next Im going to try just running with a 180f thermostat with the six bladed fan.
#21
rodomo
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Posted 07 May 2006 - 08:56 PM
Your air flow at idle isn't enough from what I've read.
Good luck!
Good luck!
#22
Tiny
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Posted 07 May 2006 - 09:59 PM
Wildsix: I had a pretty mild 202 that was prone to overheating... My solution was to fit a thermatic clutched commdore ( 7 blade??) mechanical fan, a 2 core Std size radiator, 82 degree thermostat and a new water pump.
The trick was getting the right core.. Apparently cores aint cores and the radiator guy ( who's since retired) picked the most efficient core for me.
I didnt use a Shroud.. but that would be the next best thing! To maximise the airflow through the radiator core.
In simple terms as it was put to me... if it gets hot at low vehicle speeds.. its an airflow problem ( More fan needed).. if it gets hot whilst moving at speed.. its a capacity/radiator effiency problem.
My HQ monaro.. 400 chev ( notorious overheaters)... 2 row Alloy radiator.. and AU thermo fans.. at idle will bring the temp down from 190f to 160F sitting in traffic on a 36 degree afternoon! I was wrapped!
Cheers, Best of luck!
The trick was getting the right core.. Apparently cores aint cores and the radiator guy ( who's since retired) picked the most efficient core for me.
I didnt use a Shroud.. but that would be the next best thing! To maximise the airflow through the radiator core.
In simple terms as it was put to me... if it gets hot at low vehicle speeds.. its an airflow problem ( More fan needed).. if it gets hot whilst moving at speed.. its a capacity/radiator effiency problem.
My HQ monaro.. 400 chev ( notorious overheaters)... 2 row Alloy radiator.. and AU thermo fans.. at idle will bring the temp down from 190f to 160F sitting in traffic on a 36 degree afternoon! I was wrapped!
Cheers, Best of luck!
#23
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:18 AM
Well i hope it will be an easy fix, but what you are telling us suggests not. While your prob is now only at idle at 25C,your cruise temp suggests you have no reserve there either. Sure putting in a bigger rad for the moment might see no problems at 25C or twice as many fans at idle, but think it will all go pear shaped again once the temp goes over 40C.I'll drop in on monday and see what he suggests.
Surely it couldnt be that hard to fix this. Just look at shows on Tv like American hot rod, there must be an easy solution.
Im assuming that since your 6cyl 3core was recod, that its in good condition. If you were experiencing the same probs at an ambient of 35C, then would suggest that going to the v8sized 3core would get you the difference to be able to run the car on 40C days. (Thats the sort of difference Ive seen when going from the smaller holden rads to the larger ones)
Im also assuming your are running an LJ/C, there is going to be a limit to the size of a rad you can fit in there b4 you hit the fan(especially if a clutch fan is fitted), or have enough room to mount large electric fans.
Do visit your radiator guy, he'll definitely have some ideas not all rads are equal as Tiny points out. Perhaps get him to sell you another rad, and have him guarantee that it will do the job and if it doesnt he'll take it back and give you something else thats better, as well as you making up the difference in any extra costs needed.
#24
_WYLDLC 6_
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Posted 08 May 2006 - 07:33 AM
What is the max safe temperature for a 202, as these temps being discussed seem to be the norm for mine. If anything mine will even run hotter.
Cheers Chris.
Cheers Chris.
#25
_devilsadvocate_
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Posted 08 May 2006 - 10:56 AM
Depending on the clearances set up bw bore and piston, coolant temps of 70-90C would be the intended running temps, which is what one aims to maintain with the thermostat and radiator in all conditions. You can possibly run them consistently at 110C and suffer no damage.
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